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@DWFII
In your recent posts regarding nails / pegs and heel stacks you've made some emphasis on the detrimental effects of nails in veg tanned leather. I'm just wondering, would chrome tanned leather fare even worse (or ? better) in this regard?
Thanks in advance!
Well, thank you for the kind words and vote of confidence.
That said, I've never had a heel base come off accidentally (no brag) and the men who I make boots for ride hard and put up wet. They work! In condition and at jobs that I suspect most of your dress shoe customers would blench at. Their boots see Xtreme daily and to a degree that what you're calling "extreme" might very well be considered high cotton.
I'm not sure. I mostly see this damage in heel stacks and the heel area of insoles. I don't know anyone that uses chrome tannages for outsole or insole or heel stacks (although a chrome tanned ousole is available for ballroom dancers).
That said, I've never seen the initial stain from the reaction between moist chrome and iron. And maybe even more telling, undyed chrome will not take the iron black dye.
Meaning the oxidative reaction is not happening. And FWIW, oxidation in/on iron and rust are the exact same thing.
I'm sorry...case in point--you don't know what you're talking about.
It is not mildew. It is a reaction (the initial reaction in a cycle of oxidation) between the tannin and acids in the leather and the iron.
Here is an experiment that even a non-shoemaker can do:
Take a piece of your vaunted Rendenbach. Dip it in water and let it soak for about ten minutes. Lay it on a well aerated counter flesh side up. Now place an piece of iron on it--a hammer, a pliers or even an iron nail. Let the leather dry overnight. There will be a black stain on the leather in the shape of the iron object.
Not, not, not mildew.
Here's another experiment you home experts can do: All you need is a piece of naturally coloured vegetable tanned leather, a bunch of steel wool (or a quart of old bent discarded iron tacks) and some vinegar.
Place the tacks or steel wool in a plastic bucket and cover with vinegar. Let sit overnight. Maybe two. Strain off the solution and discard the tacks. Paint the veg leather with the solution. In a few minutes, the leather will turn black! Not mildew!
This is one way black leather dye was made years and years ago. Sometimes other vegetable extracts...like logwood...were added to deepen or enrich the colour.
A more advanced experiment: Make a pair of shoes using naturally coloured veg crust. Dye one shoe black with aniline dye. Dye the other with iron black dye. Wear for one year. Condition the same and as often as you wish. After the year is up, examine the two shoes side by side. The chances are good that the shoe dyed with iron black will be cracked and the leather feeling stiff and maybe even brittle. That's why iron black or iron black based dyes lost favour.
Leather heel blocks will absorb water as the wax that seals the edges of the lifts sloughs, or is worn, off. That's why the heel is waxed in the first place. Outsole edges as well...for the same reason. Nails driven into a heel block are only impervious to moisture accretion if all water is avoided entirely (petal strewn carpets) or they are waxed daily.
Finally, I don't know how you can have it both ways--either all purpose (and even rubber cement) will block moisture migration...in which case it is occlusive and every material from cork to Topy, to full on rubber outsoles, etc., that is rubber based or mounted with rubber or neoprene cement is occlusive, or it is not. And if it is not, it will not prevent oxidation or protect the heads of those nails.
Or...you haven't thought it through and don't really and truly know what you're talking about.
--
Maybe I got this wrong......From what you are implying, water/moisture purges through the lateral portion of the base rusting nails that are coated? If so, why wouldn't the layers of the stack swell, soften and de-laminate?
It is helpful that you can confirm few problems with nails, as many makers apparently use them. However, this doesn't really address whether they function better or worse than pegs. How often do pegged shoes come through your shop? Have you seen any issue with pegs?
Again, pegs vs. nails may not be a huge issue, but I feel the rarefied territory of $5,000 shoes deserves attention to subtle (potential) improvements in even the smallest detail...
Of course, attention to subtle potential improvements in even the smallest detail makes horrible business sense. It makes a lot more business sense to do a 98% job and claim you're doing a 99.99% job than to actually do a 99.99% job because almost no clients would ever be the wiser. However, my interest is not in learning about how bespoke shoemakers can maximize profits, it is in learning how bespoke makers do the very best possible work.
Though distinctions exist between art and even the highest level of crafts, I still want to point out that the world is a better place because Shakespeare, Tolstoy, Rembrandt, Beethoven, etc. didn't settle for 98%. The magic comes when men strive for that final couple of percentage points. Rembrandt earned money painting portraits, but he certainly didn't settle for doing about as well as the other painters around in his day.
Yet, we are in an era where people celebrate making money to an extent never seen before, and discount the value of art and craft. People like to pay art and craft lip service and then agree amongst themselves that some guy throwing his feces against a wall has produced art in the same league as a Rembrandt or a Van Gogh. If people can agree that a wall covered with feces is great art, they can certainly tell themselves that RTW Goodyear-welted shoes by a "top designer" are the best possible shoes.
If any of you needed brain surgery, would you see the guy who was optimizing his practice for greatest profit with the fewest hours per week or the guy who sacrifices nearly all of his waking life to being the best, even though that clearly pays less?
Sure the stakes might be a lot lower with bespoke footwear, but arguing that point certainly discourages people like me from ponying up thousands of dollar for it.
I'm sorry...case in point--you don't know what you're talking about.
It is not mildew. It is a reaction (the initial reaction in a cycle of oxidation) between the tannin and acids in the leather and the iron.
Here is an experiment that even a non-shoemaker can do:
Take a piece of your vaunted Rendenbach. Dip it in water and let it soak for about ten minutes. Lay it on a well aerated counter flesh side up. Now place an piece of iron on it--a hammer, a pliers or even an iron nail. Let the leather dry overnight. There will be a black stain on the leather in the shape of the iron object.
Not, not, not mildew.
Here's another experiment you home experts can do: All you need is a piece of naturally coloured vegetable tanned leather, a bunch of steel wool (or a quart of old bent discarded iron tacks) and some vinegar.
Place the tacks or steel wool in a plastic bucket and cover with vinegar. Let sit overnight. Maybe two. Strain off the solution and discard the tacks. Paint the veg leather with the solution. In a few minutes, the leather will turn black! Not mildew!
This is one way black leather dye was made years and years ago. Sometimes other vegetable extracts...like logwood...were added to deepen or enrich the colour.
A more advanced experiment: Make a pair of shoes using naturally coloured veg crust. Dye one shoe black with aniline dye. Dye the other with iron black dye. Wear for one year. Condition the same and as often as you wish. After the year is up, examine the two shoes side by side. The chances are good that the shoe dyed with iron black will be cracked and the leather feeling stiff and maybe even brittle. That's why iron black or iron black based dyes lost favour.
Leather heel blocks will absorb water as the wax that seals the edges of the lifts sloughs, or is worn, off. That's why the heel is waxed in the first place. Outsole edges as well...for the same reason. Nails driven into a heel block are only impervious to moisture accretion if all water is avoided entirely (petal strewn carpets) or they are waxed daily.
Finally, I don't know how you can have it both ways--either all purpose (and even rubber cement) will block moisture migration...in which case it is occlusive and every material from cork to Topy, to full on rubber outsoles, etc., that is rubber based or mounted with rubber or neoprene cement is occlusive, or it is not. And if it is not, it will not prevent oxidation or protect the heads of those nails.
Or...you haven't thought it through and don't really and truly know what you're talking about.
--
Scenario 1:
"Do you peg or nail your heel seat/rand/split lift and heels?"
"No."
"kthxbye."
Scenario 2:
"Can you peg heel seat/rand/split lift and heels for my order?"
"Do you go into other peoples bedroom and tell them how to make love to their other half?"
I really doubt any decent bespoke maker would respond in these ways. At the very least, I imagine he would politely inquire as to the reason for the request and then decline it if they felt they couldn't accommodate it or didn't wish to accommodate it. That said, I am not a bespoke maker, so I really can't be at all sure how one would respond to such a request. I also don't understand why you would propose how a maker would respond when you aren't one and there are at least four following the thread.
Chogall, may I ask how many pairs of bespoke shoes your have purchased, not counting ones you purchased that were originally bespoken for somebody else? At the least, it would help me to judge how much you know from the client's side regarding bespoke footwear.
If you have purchased bespoke shoes for yourself, why not share some photos of them here for all of us to enjoy and/or critique? In addition, I doubt many bespoke makers would mind their clients naming them. Could you name the bespoke makers from whom you have ordered shoes?
I am neither a bespoke shoemaker nor have I ever purchased bespoke shoes, so I represent myself to know basically nothing about the topic, but am glad to ask questions and try to learn a little something here from people like DW who are so generous with their knowledge and time.
Interestingly enough both pix came from D Wegan Instagram. Not sure if he did it as a discovery practice or for actual customer delivery. Or it's from some out workers.
I've also seen a Spanish maker doing both.
Thus my curiosity.
I never said that your heel bases would come off.
I answered the question asked of me. And, yes I've seen them sheered off. Just sharing my experience.
Do you intend to quiz your future shoemakers on how many pairs have they make themselves, not counting ones they made under other workshops for other shoemakers? It might help you judging how much they know about making bespoke shoes!
I'll tell you why my heels have never come off...it's not because I'm some crazy talented maker or because I make shoes that no one wears anywhere but on carpets. It's because I obsess about details like rust and wax and temper and how many pegs per inch.
Heaven is is the details.
I think it is completely fair to ask a man how experienced he is at his trade if you are going to pay him for work. Experience counts for an awful lot.