Shoemaking Techniques and Traditions--"...these foolish things..."

[Whirling]

Saw this linked over on Reddit. I find it to be a very interesting article about a fantastic bespoke maker.

http://dieworkwear.com/post/142304011889/how-bespoke-shoes-are-made

 

[OzzyJones]



Saw this linked over on Reddit. I find it to be a very interesting article about a fantastic bespoke maker.

http://dieworkwear.com/post/142304011889/how-bespoke-shoes-are-made

Saw the finished article on Nick's FB page. Just awesome work! Wish I could come close to affording it!
Maybe follow DWF's advice and reduce the quantity while increasing the quality

 

[chogall]

Saw this linked over on Reddit. I find it to be a very interesting article about a fantastic bespoke maker.

http://dieworkwear.com/post/142304011889/how-bespoke-shoes-are-made

That's written by our own @dieworkwear on this forum. He's a great blogger not a shill like some others. And a snarky troll.

 

[JermynStreet]

Why not have aluminum nails? They don't rust, are light, and are strong.

 

[OzzyJones]



Why not have aluminum nails? They don't rust, are light, and are strong.

Aluminium oxidises, not sure of the rate versus steel tho.

Interesting; aluminium oxide is a stable protective layer only in the ph range 7-9. Outside this it breaks down and is prone to pitting and fractures.

Probably not the best material for shoes then!

 

[bengal-stripe]



Saw this..... very interesting article about a fantastic bespoke maker.

.......so that he might be able to satisfy the request of customer who wanted his shoes made with them?

If you were to commission a pair from NT, would you request he used pegs for your shoes?

 

[DWFII]



<. But then @DWFII
will just discrediting his experiences as he's not a shoemaker nor worked on every single pair of shoes in his shop.

The only thing I have ever insisted upon in all these exchanges is that anyone...such as you in this and myriad other posts...belligerently contradicting or confronting me know, first hand, what he is talking about.

If pointing out the gracelessness...the ignorant, adolescent disrespectfulness...of pretending to knowledge or experience that you don't have is discrediting, too bad. Oh well, so sad.

I grew up believing that you had to earn what you lay claim to. That no one is entitled. I think posing and embezzling respect that hasn't been earned, is discrediting all by itself.

--

 

[DWFII]



If you were to commission a pair from NT, would you request he used pegs for your shoes?

You can request, he may not accede.

But the real question is...if Whirling asked and /or if Nicholas agreed, what harm?

 

[Nick V.]

Years ago these were very common:
http://www.dbgurney.com/product.php?productid=18237
They are shaped more like a spike than a nail. Very hard steel. Once they clinched they were a bear to loosen.
They have a very small head but gripped very effectively.

These days the high-grade makers use threaded nails.
I have seen the black stain (that DW mentioned) around the head of some of these threaded nails. It's rare though. I wouldn't call the stain rust it rather looks like mildew. Of course it takes some sort of moisture to create mildew. How much?

When you think of it....the entire shank of the nail is embedded into the leather insole then the base. There is no exposure to moisture. Therefore the only part of the nail that has even a remote possibility of being exposed to moisture is the head of the nail. Add to that most high-grade makers add a pad of some sort over the heads of the nails. That pad is attached with rubber cement. Rubber cement has a property that is water resistant. Next a heel seat, 3/4 liner or, full sock is attached over the pad. That lining is also attached using rubber cement. So, aside from the pad and liner there are two layers of rubber cement. The threaded nails that we use are also coated to resist moisture.

Having said that, from my experience I would have to agree with Nicholas T. and J-mac. Although there is a very slight chance of a mildew stain the chance of actual rust is even slighter. So much so that I consider it consequential.

 

[Whirling]



If you were to commission a pair from NT, would you request he used pegs for your shoes?

You can request, he may not accede.

But the real question is...if Whirling asked and /or if Nicholas agreed, what harm?

I am not sure I whether I would ask him to use nails or pegs...it's a bit hypothetical until I decide to talk to him about making me shoes, at all. His work is beautiful.

Although I respect that a lot of people get bespoke footwear in order to get shoes of a style and shape that can't be had RTW, my main interest would be to get footwear of the highest-possible quality that would fit me exceedingly well, hold up well to years of regular wear, and look extremely good, though not in a "flashy" way. I worry that some of Mr. Templeman's aesthetic mastery would be lost on my plain tastes and my desires for highly durable leathers...though I have little doubt he could accommodate me.

One reason to delay ordering bespoke footwear is that I have had ongoing foot trouble this past year. Previously, I had a hard time finding footwear that was comfortable, but had not had any serious pain. In the last year, I had a horrible bout of plantar fasciitis, which went away just as I developed metatarsal pain on the other side--obviously closely related...I have been working on all of this in various ways...I should see a doctor, but I generally don't trust doctors.

 

[Whirling]



Years ago these were very common:
http://www.dbgurney.com/product.php?productid=18237
They are shaped more like a spike than a nail. Very hard steel. Once they clinched they were a bear to loosen.
They have a very small head but gripped very effectively.

These days the high-grade makers use threaded nails.
I have seen the black stain (that DW mentioned) around the head of some of these threaded nails. It's rare though. I wouldn't call the stain rust it rather looks like mildew. Of course it takes some sort of moisture to create mildew. How much?

When you think of it....the entire shank of the nail is embedded into the leather insole then the base. There is no exposure to moisture. Therefore the only part of the nail that has even a remote possibility of being exposed to moisture is the head of the nail. Add to that most high-grade makers add a pad of some sort over the heads of the nails. That pad is attached with rubber cement. Rubber cement has a property that is water resistant. Next a heel seat, 3/4 liner or, full sock is attached over the pad. That lining is also attached using rubber cement. So, aside from the pad and liner there are two layers of rubber cement. The threaded nails that we use are also coated to resist moisture.

Having said that, from my experience I would have to agree with Nicholas T. and J-mac. Although there is a very slight chance of a mildew stain the chance of actual rust is even slighter. So much so that I consider it consequential.

It is helpful that you can confirm few problems with nails, as many makers apparently use them. However, this doesn't really address whether they function better or worse than pegs. How often do pegged shoes come through your shop? Have you seen any issue with pegs?

Again, pegs vs. nails may not be a huge issue, but I feel the rarefied territory of $5,000 shoes deserves attention to subtle (potential) improvements in even the smallest detail...

Of course, attention to subtle potential improvements in even the smallest detail makes horrible business sense. It makes a lot more business sense to do a 98% job and claim you're doing a 99.99% job than to actually do a 99.99% job because almost no clients would ever be the wiser. However, my interest is not in learning about how bespoke shoemakers can maximize profits, it is in learning how bespoke makers do the very best possible work.

Though distinctions exist between art and even the highest level of crafts, I still want to point out that the world is a better place because Shakespeare, Tolstoy, Rembrandt, Beethoven, etc. didn't settle for 98%. The magic comes when men strive for that final couple of percentage points. Rembrandt earned money painting portraits, but he certainly didn't settle for doing about as well as the other painters around in his day.

Yet, we are in an era where people celebrate making money to an extent never seen before, and discount the value of art and craft. People like to pay art and craft lip service and then agree amongst themselves that some guy throwing his feces against a wall has produced art in the same league as a Rembrandt or a Van Gogh. If people can agree that a wall covered with feces is great art, they can certainly tell themselves that RTW Goodyear-welted shoes by a "top designer" are the best possible shoes.

If any of you needed brain surgery, would you see the guy who was optimizing his practice for greatest profit with the fewest hours per week or the guy who sacrifices nearly all of his waking life to being the best, even though that clearly pays less?

Sure the stakes might be a lot lower with bespoke footwear, but arguing that point certainly discourages people like me from ponying up thousands of dollar for it.

 

[DWFII]



I wouldn't call the stain rust it rather looks like mildew. Of course it takes some sort of moisture to create mildew. How much?

I'm sorry...case in point--you don't know what you're talking about.

It is not mildew. It is a reaction (the initial reaction in a cycle of oxidation) between the tannin and acids in the leather and the iron.

Here is an experiment that even a non-shoemaker can do:

Take a piece of your vaunted Rendenbach. Dip it in water and let it soak for about ten minutes. Lay it on a well aerated counter flesh side up. Now place an piece of iron on it--a hammer, a pliers or even an iron nail. Let the leather dry overnight. There will be a black stain on the leather in the shape of the iron object.

Not, not, not mildew.

Here's another experiment you home experts can do: All you need is a piece of naturally coloured vegetable tanned leather, a bunch of steel wool (or a quart of old bent discarded iron tacks) and some vinegar.

Place the tacks or steel wool in a plastic bucket and cover with vinegar. Let sit overnight. Maybe two. Strain off the solution and discard the tacks. Paint the veg leather with the solution. In a few minutes, the leather will turn black! Not mildew!

This is one way black leather dye was made years and years ago. Sometimes other vegetable extracts...like logwood...were added to deepen or enrich the colour.

A more advanced experiment: Make a pair of shoes using naturally coloured veg crust. Dye one shoe black with aniline dye. Dye the other with iron black dye. Wear for one year. Condition the same and as often as you wish. After the year is up, examine the two shoes side by side. The chances are good that the shoe dyed with iron black will be cracked and the leather feeling stiff and maybe even brittle. That's why iron black or iron black based dyes lost favour.

Leather heel blocks will absorb water as the wax that seals the edges of the lifts sloughs, or is worn, off. That's why the heel is waxed in the first place. Outsole edges as well...for the same reason. Nails driven into a heel block are only impervious to moisture accretion if all water is avoided entirely (petal strewn carpets) or they are waxed daily.

Finally, I don't know how you can have it both ways--either all purpose (and even rubber cement) will block moisture migration...in which case it is occlusive and every material from cork to Topy, to full on rubber outsoles, etc., that is rubber based or mounted with rubber or neoprene cement is occlusive, or it is not. And if it is not, it will not prevent oxidation or protect the heads of those nails.

Or...you haven't thought it through and don't really and truly know what you're talking about.

--

 

[Nick V.]



It is helpful that you can confirm few problems with nails, as many makers apparently use them. However, this doesn't really address whether they function better or worse than pegs. How often do pegged shoes come through your shop? Have you seen any issue with pegs?

Again, pegs vs. nails may not be a huge issue, but I feel the rarefied territory of $5,000 shoes deserves attention to subtle (potential) improvements in even the smallest detail...

Of course, attention to subtle potential improvements in even the smallest detail makes horrible business sense. It makes a lot more business sense to do a 98% job and claim you're doing a 99.99% job than to actually do a 99.99% job because almost no clients would ever be the wiser. However, my interest is not in learning about how bespoke shoemakers can maximize profits, it is in learning how bespoke makers do the very best possible work.

Though distinctions exist between art and even the highest level of crafts, I still want to point out that the world is a better place because Shakespeare, Tolstoy, Rembrandt, Beethoven, etc. didn't settle for 98%. The magic comes when men strive for that final couple of percentage points. Rembrandt earned money painting portraits, but he certainly didn't settle for doing about as well as the other painters around in his day.

Yet, we are in an era where people celebrate making money to an extent never seen before, and discount the value of art and craft. People like to pay art and craft lip service and then agree amongst themselves that some guy throwing his feces against a wall has produced art in the same league as a Rembrandt or a Van Gogh. If people can agree that a wall covered with feces is great art, they can certainly tell themselves that RTW Goodyear-welted shoes by a "top designer" are the best possible shoes.

If any of you needed brain surgery, would you see the guy who was optimizing his practice for greatest profit with the fewest hours per week or the guy who sacrifices nearly all of his waking life to being the best, even though that clearly pays less?

Sure the stakes might be a lot lower with bespoke footwear, but arguing that point certainly discourages people like me from ponying up thousands of dollar for it.

I'm not saying that one functions better than another. I'm saying that if done correctly I see little difference. I can't even remember the last time I saw a pegged base but I have seen them before. I've seen extreme cases where the base took enough of a jolt that the pegs sheered off. I've also seen a nailed base take a similar hit and the base popped off. I can't agree that pegs are a potential subtle improvement in making a shoe. However, I will admit, that's up to the maker and I have no qualms about that.

I think that DW has explained in quite some detail how in his opinion he does the very best possible work. And if he can improve on that today he will.
I'm certain if you asked Monet to critique Rembrandt's work he could find faults. I'm am in no way comparing this discussion with the best artists in history. But, I'll ask you, what is perfect?

I am in no way trying to discourage you -or- anyone else from ponying up thousands of dollars for a bespoke shoe. In fact I would encourage you to do so if you are inclined. Then you would know for yourself. Further, why not commission DW for the job? From what I understand it may not cost thousands. I would certainly trust him.

If I remember correctly on the topic of fitting.....DW mentioned something to the effect of I not only fit the foot, I fit the brain.......I couldn't agree more with him on that!

 

[DWFII]



I'm not saying that one functions better than another. I'm saying that if done correctly I see little difference. I can't even remember the last time I saw a pegged base but I have seen them before. I've seen extreme cases where the base took enough of a jolt that the pegs sheered off. I've also seen a nailed base take a similar hit and the base popped off. I can't agree that pegs are a potential subtle improvement in making a shoe. However, I will admit, that's up to the maker and I have no qualms about that.

I think that DW has explained in quite some detail how in his opinion he does the very best possible work. And if he can improve on that today he will.
I'm certain if you asked Monet to critique Rembrandt's work he could find faults. I'm am in no way comparing this discussion with the best artists in history. But, I'll ask you, what is perfect?

I am in no way trying to discourage you -or- anyone else from ponying up thousands of dollars for a bespoke shoe. In fact I would encourage you to do so if you are inclined. Then you would know for yourself. Further, why not commission DW for the job? From what I understand it may not cost thousands. I would certainly trust him.

If I remember correctly on the topic of fitting.....DW mentioned something to the effect of I not only fit the foot, I fit the brain.......I couldn't agree more with him on that!

Well, thank you for the kind words and vote of confidence.

That said, I've never had a heel base come off accidentally (no brag) and the men who I make boots for ride hard and put up wet. They work! In condition and at jobs that I suspect most of your dress shoe customers would blench at. Their boots see Xtreme daily and to a degree that what you're calling "extreme" might very well be considered high cotton.

 

[ThunderMarch]

@DWFII

In your recent posts regarding nails / pegs and heel stacks you've made some emphasis on the detrimental effects of nails in veg tanned leather. I'm just wondering, would chrome tanned leather fare even worse (or ? better) in this regard?
Thanks in advance!