shirt tie...no jacket?

[academe]

Originally Posted by Meursault

...On the issue of class and clothing's status as a social signifier that has come up - well, yes I think the issue does have something to do with social status. But no more so than members who say they judge someone's status based on whether they're wearing a Glashutte watch or not. Tailored clothing, partly because of its considerable expense (and the prohibitive expense of getting it made really well) has always been an expression of status, since well before Brummel's time, though he did it better than most. When people buy expensive suits, shirts or shoes, they mostly want to say something about themselves (leaving aside the few people like those us this forum who genuinly care about the minutiae of quality and fit for the sake of mere aesthetics.) I very much doubt that, when Manton picks up his jacket in the morning and throws it over his shoulder, he's doing it because he fears that otherwise people may take him for the office junior. Rather, I would guess it's because it just doesn't feel 'right' to him to do otherwise, and were he to leave it behind he would feel somewhat uncomfortable. (Obviously, if I am wrong on this, I apologise to Manton and welcome his correction.) Very few people who adhere to 'rules' on clothing do it because they want to say something about their social status, but the desire to differentiate between people was, I would argue, one of the reasons that these 'rules' developed, and so when we see something that breaks those rules and looks bad, if we actually stop for a few minutes to wonder why we dislike it and the subconscious (or otherwise) messages it sends to us, this issue of status is often at the root of the issue, as it is at the root of most things to do with clothing, male and female.
I believe what you're arguing is that one of the essential roles of clothing is to denote social status, class, etc.. I would not disagree with you on this point, as it seems the historical role of clothing has been to convey non-verbal information about the social identity of that person, their social/tribal affiliations, etc. etc. However, in the modern workplace, one has to admit that clothing has become less and less about social status or class, and has become increasingly about personal expression, within some bounds... ...But I digress. The point I really wanted to make is that I objected to the tone of your earlier post. It seemed to suggest a condescension to those of lesser social rank than your own, and certain disdain for the piddling masses. Perhaps I have misjudged you, and read too much into what you wrote, but that is what a felt. If I had misjudged you, then I apologise.

 

[academe]

Originally Posted by Orsini

I assure you, I did not mean to imply that you were trolling or are otherwise like unto a troll. I said that because that piece of your rhetoric reminded me of old what's-his-name and it amused me to take his name in vain. If my gag has caused any hurt feelings to you, I apologize.

Ah, I see. I must have misinterpreted what you meant then. No offense taken...

 

[Orsini]

Originally Posted by JLibourel

Yeah, some of my comments above were reminiscent of those that earned me the appellations of "bigot" and "hateful snob" from ol' Cruiser. I wish he would come over here where he could be engaged free from the protective shield he enjoys through the despotic moderation regnant in "his" forum!
I do not think He would last very long over here. Now that He has chased away some of the old guard, cowed the remnants, and buffaloed the new hires, He has really succeeded in re-inventing himself as some sort of....something or another... We had a nice exchange recently (http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=82462 ) which enjoyed. I succeeded in being denounced as making an "elitist, snobbish comment." If you review the thread, which I believe you may find amusing, you will see -- He is not fireproof...

 

[Orsini]

Originally Posted by academe

Ah, I see. I must have misinterpreted what you meant then. No offense taken...
I am pleased to hear that. I look forward to a long and mutually amusing and beneficial association.

 

[academe]

Originally Posted by babygreenspots

Londoners and New Yorkers in finance can be forgiven for their prejudices since they are used to living with blasting AC and minimal smog. They can go directly from car or subway to office, sort of denying the reality of the temperature. Will I be tarred and feathered for mentioning global warming and the contribution of air conditioning? Most likely, but perhaps we should be discussing new modes of dress that minimize that impact.
Just saw your post. This is actually a very interesting point and worth discussing at a later stage. As a climate scientist by trade, I often do think about what our consumer and lifestyle choices mean for the atmosphere, climate warming, etc. Another problem with air conditioner use, aside from the large amounts electricity required, is that in developing countries, such as China (where I see you are) and India, the refrigerants used can destroy the ozone layer. Several developing countries were not signatories to the Montreal Protocol limiting CFC use, and consequently their emissions may pose a problem in the future for ozone layer recovery. I recently read a report about the growth in a new CFC (name's escaping me at the moment

) in the atmosphere linked to increased air conditioner use in developing countries; this compound seems to be reversing some of the gains made in the 1990s with limiting CFC use in industrialised countries.

One of Japan's prime ministers (again, my mind is a blank) recommended a change in dress for office workers during the hot summer months so that they could reduce the degree of air conditioning and cut down on energy use. I wonder if something like that could be instituted in some of the hotter countries, or during the warmest months? Might be a sartorial nightmare for some, but I think the conservation in resources would make it a well-justified measure.

 

[Bradford]

Originally Posted by Orsini

We had a nice exchange recently (http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=82462 ) which enjoyed. I succeeded in being denounced as making an "elitist, snobbish comment." If you review the thread, which I believe you may find amusing, you will see -- He is not fireproof...

What a dumb thread.

 

[JLibourel]

Originally Posted by Orsini

I do not think He would last very long over here.

Now that He has chased away some of the old guard, cowed the remnants, and buffaloed the new hires, He has really succeeded in re-inventing himself as some sort of....something or another...

We had a nice exchange recently (http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=82462 ) which enjoyed. I succeeded in being denounced as making an "elitist, snobbish comment." If you review the thread, which I believe you may find amusing, you will see -- He is not fireproof...

Thanks for the link. I had seen the earlier pages but not the later ones. Nice to know I'm "gone but not forgotten" over in Cruiserland.

I've said it before but I'll say it again that in some ways Cruiser is almost a heroic figure: Here you have a man with scant knowledge and less taste who by his dogged pertinacity and sheer force of will, abetted by the patronage and/or passivity of the moderators and board host, managed to greatly change the tenor of a forum of 14,000 members...and not for the better, I fear.

 

[Orsini]

Originally Posted by JLibourel

Thanks for the link. I had seen the earlier pages but not the later ones. Nice to know I'm "gone but not forgotten" over in Cruiserland. I've said it before but I'll say it again that in some ways Cruiser is almost a heroic figure: Here you have a man with scant knowledge and less taste who by his dogged pertinacity and sheer force of will, abetted by the patronage and/or passivity of the moderators and board host, managed to greatly change the tenor of a forum of 14,000 members...and not for the better, I fear.
Yes, they continue to drop off. One significant contributor has not posted there for over a month. I was curious, so I checked. All this is being done by a character that, having absolutely zero interest in the subject at hand, has no good reason to be there… He is really quite an expert at what he does. If I had anything to gain by being a professional jerk (which I do not), I would study his methods closely. He claims to be doing nothing wrong while simultaneously poking his target in the eye. Then, when he gets a rise, he turns it around so he appears to be the victim and the crowd swallows it hook, line, and sinker! He is really quite accomplished.

 

[Orsini]

Originally Posted by Bradford

What a dumb thread.
Yes, it went downhill fast...

 

[Jumbie]

My question is this.

I'm doing clinical rotations right now and my daily dress consists of shirt + dress pants + tie + short white coat. When I'm an attending, I can dress however I want but for now the above is what I'm stuck with. I therefore am not wearing suits or sportcoats.

Often, on the way home, I need to stop to buy groceries or some such errand. I obviously don't wear my white coat outside of the hospital. What do you propose I do? Remove the tie and just go in shirt + pants? I've been going in with the tie on thus far.

 

[Shikar]

Originally Posted by Jumbie

My question is this.

I'm doing clinical rotations right now and my daily dress consists of shirt + dress pants + tie + short white coat. When I'm an attending, I can dress however I want but for now the above is what I'm stuck with. I therefore am not wearing suits or sportcoats.

Often, on the way home, I need to stop to buy groceries or some such errand. I obviously don't wear my white coat outside of the hospital. What do you propose I do? Remove the tie and just go in shirt + pants? I've been going in with the tie on thus far.

They will sell you groceries either way...and I am an attending so no snide comeback.

When on rotation in the ER during residency, our *shorter coat* bretheren did get Burger King at night when the cafeteria was closed.

Regards.
PS. Good Luck in med school and residency.
PS. And we didnt have no hour limit worked either.....

 

[Orsini]

Originally Posted by Jumbie

My question is this. I'm doing clinical rotations right now and my daily dress consists of shirt + dress pants + tie + short white coat. When I'm an attending, I can dress however I want but for now the above is what I'm stuck with. I therefore am not wearing suits or sportcoats. Often, on the way home, I need to stop to buy groceries or some such errand. I obviously don't wear my white coat outside of the hospital. What do you propose I do? Remove the tie and just go in shirt + pants? I've been going in with the tie on thus far.
You could keep an odd jacket in the car or in your locker at the hospital.

 

[academe]

Originally Posted by Orsini

You could keep an odd jacket in the car or in your locker at the hospital.

+1

If it's warmer, bring a linen jacket rather than wool one. Or, you could just dispense with the tie if it's the height of summer...

 

[teddieriley]

...

 

[babygreenspots]

Thank you to Academe for responding to my points. I believe the carbon imprint of the suit and tie is huge, less because of the process of producing it than due to the climate control that it necessitates. But, it's true; stylish alternatives for summer are few.

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but it does seem like quite a relevant topic with summer coming up and the pollution outside my window already at a dreadful level. There is a spike in emissions during summer due to air conditioning, and this seems tied to the suit and tie. I wish I could wear a suit all year, but, having lived in a place that is horrifically polluted (and regardless of global warming), we need to find stylish alternatives that are acceptable in a professional context.

Even in an unlined, tropical weight wool or linen suit, you can't really be comfortable in most parts of the world during 2-3 months of the year, without heavy use of air conditioning. Let me speak of the situation here. The Chinese government asks offices to keep AC temperatures at 26 degrees or higher, as part of an effort to meet the Eleventh Five-Year Plan goal of cutting energy usage per GDP unit 20% by 2010. A twenty member “energy police” enforces this regulation, rather poorly, throughout Beijing. Meanwhile, the US won't join the Kyoto treaty because China won't either. China won't do this because of its low per capita emissions. Even without Kyoto, China is doing much more than we are - this is just one example.

Chinese desk men tend to wear short-sleeve dress shirts, since the offices of state-run companies and government do follow regulations. You can tell people in foreign firms, because they wear suits throughout summer. This is possible because the foreign firms do not follow the regulation. Of course, we all know that even the most unstylish Western man would describe the short sleeve dress shirt look as a fashion crime, best accompanied by a pocket protector and “kick me” embroidered on the pants seat. It is simply not professional or sartorially responsible to go to work without a suit.

So I'm not sure what the solution is but calling someone ridiculous or low-class for not wearing their jacket in public does not seem to be a step in the right direction. Japanese Prime Ministers Masayoshi Ohira and Tsutomu Hata were both laughed at for their short sleeve suits, so I don't know that this is the best option.