New bespoke suit...

[dah328]

Originally Posted by mrchapel

One might beg to differ...isn't the number of measurements a tailor takes a fixed number? I think so.
No, he takes a finite number of measurements, but not a fixed number and that's why Baron's is MTM and not bespoke.

 

[mrchapel]

Originally Posted by dah328

No, he takes a finite number of measurements, but not a fixed number and that's why Baron's is MTM and not bespoke.

You missed my point entirely sir. When all is said and done, and the proper fit is acheived, count the number of measurements he has for you and they are then a fixed amount. Clearer?

 

[odoreater]

Ordering anything over the internet is inherently dangerous because you have no idea how it will fit. When you order a RTW suit that danger is lessened because you have some expectations as to fit. When you order from a custom suitmaker over the internet that danger is increased. I'd hate to see people waste their money and end up disappointed with a product that has both inferior construction and quality and inferior fit and ends up costing a lot more than it's worth. I would think that BB would be more worthwile for people who have more money to throw around and can experiment with something this expensive than for people who are looking for a true bargain.

 

[dah328]

Originally Posted by mrchapel

You missed my point entirely sir. When all is said and done, and the proper fit is acheived, count the number of measurements he has for you and they are then a fixed amount. Clearer?
No, you missed my point. What is perfectly clear is that you are absolutely intent on calling Baron's products bespoke and you are quite free to do so. You do great violence to the word, though.

 

[dah328]

All that said, I don't think Baron's is a bad start for someone just getting into custom. It will serve to illustrate many of the pitfalls of custom and the issues one will encounter with poor workmanship. Better to learn those lessons on a cheap suit than an expensive one.

 

[mrchapel]

Originally Posted by dah328

No, you missed my point. What is perfectly clear is that you are absolutely intent on calling Baron's products bespoke and you are quite free to do so. You do great violence to the word, though.

Please. Bespoke is not some holy word. I am quite free to do so, just like you are free to demean me or otherwise disagree with me. I also am free to disagree with you, sir. Anyone with as sharp an eye as you will be able to draw their own conclusions as to the construction behind Baron or any other internet tailor's suits. Your allegiance to the "bespoke experience" is quite warming; as I have pointed out clearly, differs from bespoke.

And I did get your point; you chose to ignore mine. Perfectly acceptable. It is a mathematical equation: after a suit has been prepared to one's liking, the number of measurements the tailor has becomes a fixed number. That is until the next bespoke suit when the process is repeated. In the end, the measurements will total a fixed number.

 

[mrchapel]

Originally Posted by dah328

All that said, I don't think Baron's is a bad start for someone just getting into custom. It will serve to illustrate many of the pitfalls of custom and the issues one will encounter with poor workmanship. Better to learn those lessons on a cheap suit than an expensive one.

I do not understand why you are bashing a product you have not personally tried. Unless this is contratry, and you have tried Baron, then consider this statement null. Again, you keep stressing poor workmanship, and poor quality, and yet, you have no proof to back up these claims about Baron. That is what is causing a disservice to the members of this forum, if I may be so bold.

 

[whoopee]

When one visits a tailor, the number of measurements to be taken is not fixed. The tailor, of course, has a routine; indeed, many, if not most, have a measuremtn form and go through it methodically. But it is not limited to that. Some clients may ask for a more to be taken for peace of mind. Whatever you want, that's bespoke. Of course, a fixed number has been taken for a suit when looked back retrospectively. How could it not? That's like saying that at the end of the day, you can look back and describe the course of events you've experienced in order. Bu tin the morning, no matter how much planning has been done, you can't forecast surprises and routine happenings - say someone, unexpectedly spills coffee on your shirt, requiring you to make a detour before your meeting, for which you arrive late, and then a multitude of possibilities spill out from there - bespoke is about possibility - the possibility for anything - the turn of events could be compared to a client walking in with oddly shaped shoulders that need to be addressed secially, with additional care and measurements. In contrast, the number of measurements that Baron take is fixed from the get-go. That is a big difference, conceptually.

It may be that Baron make a fresh pattern for each client, but I think it is probably not appreciably better than a MTM one. Consider that the real step up from MTM to bespoke in terms of fit is for addressign not chest siaze, waist size, etc, but posture, shoulder slopes, curved legs, etc. They also almost certainly use standard ratios and rules of thumb for specs like shoulder slope - square, normal, sloped. Jantzen do the same, and they don't make a new patteern for each client, but it is very adjustable. I would not be surprised at all if that's Baron's MO, too.

 

[retronotmetro]

Oooh. I love unresolveable semantic flame wars.

 

[clownmitts]

Originally Posted by retronotmetro

Oooh. I love unresolveable semantic flame wars.

About clothing no less.

 

[aybojs]

Originally Posted by Ambulance Chaser

With all due respect, I'm going to credit the view of Mr. Logsdail over that of Wikipedia.

Just a sidenote, I can't help but get annoyed when people try to cite Wikipedia as an authoritative source on anything. It can be fun to play around with and as a tertiary source for getting cursory information about subjects and get an idea of where to start looking for legitimate, well-researched and defended sources on that subject, but it shouldn't be treated as something you would cite ala a piece in a bibliography. Whenever I do online research, Wikipedia is one of the last places I look at, and if I end up using Google for search help, I make sure to exclude any page mentioning "wiki" or "Wikipedia" to filter out potentially flawed information.

Also, a wry observation: check out pictures from Wikpedia writers' profiles and Wikipedia meets... after seeing how poorly those people dress, would you take their word on what constitutes clothing knowledge?

 

[Quirk]

Was there ever a time, long before the internet, when tailors would occasionally create suits from scratch, using only measurements that had been submitted by the customer via mail or messenger?

 

[Jovan]

I'm quite sure it's possible, Quirk.

Anyways, thought I'd throw my two cents in here. I would at least say Baron Boutique is what I call semi-bespoke. The clothes are not made to measure; all their patterns are created from scratch and so they can do anything you want. However, as pointed out, they do not measure you in person.

I don't see why this generated such a big argument, personally.

 

[mrchapel]

Originally Posted by aybojs

Just a sidenote, I can't help but get annoyed when people try to cite Wikipedia as an authoritative source on anything. It can be fun to play around with and as a tertiary source for getting cursory information about subjects and get an idea of where to start looking for legitimate, well-researched and defended sources on that subject, but it shouldn't be treated as something you would cite ala a piece in a bibliography. Whenever I do online research, Wikipedia is one of the last places I look at, and if I end up using Google for search help, I make sure to exclude any page mentioning "wiki" or "Wikipedia" to filter out potentially flawed information.

Also, a wry observation: check out pictures from Wikpedia writers' profiles and Wikipedia meets... after seeing how poorly those people dress, would you take their word on what constitutes clothing knowledge?

I agree completely -- except when it comes to actual word definitions. IME, they are usually spot on, or provide a clearer definition of words. Wikipedia is full of incomplete information, but as to the meaning of bespoke, I have found other resources to compliment it:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/bespoke

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/bespoke

http://www.redmountainsw.com/wordpre...ing-of-bespoke

 

[mrchapel]

Originally Posted by whoopee

When one visits a tailor, the number of measurements to be taken is not fixed. The tailor, of course, has a routine; indeed, many, if not most, have a measuremtn form and go through it methodically. But it is not limited to that. Some clients may ask for a more to be taken for peace of mind. Whatever you want, that's bespoke. Of course, a fixed number has been taken for a suit when looked back retrospectively. How could it not? That's like saying that at the end of the day, you can look back and describe the course of events you've experienced in order. Bu tin the morning, no matter how much planning has been done, you can't forecast surprises and routine happenings - say someone, unexpectedly spills coffee on your shirt, requiring you to make a detour before your meeting, for which you arrive late, and then a multitude of possibilities spill out from there - bespoke is about possibility - the possibility for anything - the turn of events could be compared to a client walking in with oddly shaped shoulders that need to be addressed secially, with additional care and measurements. In contrast, the number of measurements that Baron take is fixed from the get-go. That is a big difference, conceptually.

Yes, I can see your point about the measurements. As an aside, the measuring you mention is the "bespoke experience" that can only be had in a face-to-face situation.

Originally Posted by whoopee

It may be that Baron make a fresh pattern for each client, but I think it is probably not appreciably better than a MTM one. Consider that the real step up from MTM to bespoke in terms of fit is for addressign not chest siaze, waist size, etc, but posture, shoulder slopes, curved legs, etc. They also almost certainly use standard ratios and rules of thumb for specs like shoulder slope - square, normal, sloped. Jantzen do the same, and they don't make a new patteern for each client, but it is very adjustable. I would not be surprised at all if that's Baron's MO, too.

I have yet to judge this...not sure how possible it is to accurately gauge MTM vs bespoke. Sure, quality wise no question. But once the suit has been constructed...? I suppose the difference is the fit then.