Mr. Ned vs. Brooklyn Tailors

[David Reeves]

I would agree if these things were totally cut and dry I wish they were but they aren't.

Savile row itself runs into problems of its own making because they all don't make a bespoke suit in the same way. Geographically they tried to pin it down but oops they run into trouble with A&S. There are also people there that have been given the title of Master tailor (at big firms) who are not and have never been bench tailors. Then you have great contributions to tailoring from Tommy Nutter, Armani, Richard James, Timothy Everest none of these guys are/were tailors.

I have been struggling for ages to try to nail down in a succinct way the differences between MTM, Custom and Bespoke. I know the differences but conveying that to the public is difficult in a simple way. Recently I have been showing clients examples of all three, usually when you do this people get it, but then seeing is believing. Describing process, man hours etc doesn't have as much impact and unless you experience something like a real Bespoke suit you would probably remain ignorant of the differences.

For my own work I have started differentiating them by MTM (adapted pattern and laser cut), Custom (made locally lots of handwork crucially pattern made) and Bespoke pattern made over 40 hours of labour everything hand stitched except long seams, no fusing anywhere. Its not as effective as seeing and experiencing the difference though.

 

[greger]

Maybe you should go talk to the CTDA and see what they have to say. One of the problems your having is you are basing your thoughts on SR tailoring, which is only one kind. If you travel around the world and look back in history SR is johnny come lately. SR itself has grabbed from history and applied it to their styles- changing it now and then. The tailoring that I come from says there are no tailors on SR anymore because of house styles, machines, and even fuse. At best they would be called lesser tailors. Sewing machines gives a manufactured feel. Is fuse because of lack of skill? House styles, again, goes back to manufactures. Now, what real tailors are left on SR? Are they really just a bunch of high class manufacturers? If you could raise from the dead some SR tailors from a hundred years ago would they agree with me? There are some mediterranean tailors who tailor quite different than SR, but then they are in a different climate. Because they do it different has nothing to do with if they are or are not tailors. Methods meet the needs or wants. And then there are custom clothes makers who are not tailors at all, but do splendid work. You must remember that tailors have made for all classes of males in the past, and not just the high end. People with little income would have been getting fents for cloth, less pad stitching, some places less stitches, and so on to cut the cost, but still bespoke. Your coming here and calling bespoke custom for lower classes is pretty rude when we here call bespoke, what it is, custom for even the higher classes! When you move to another country it is your responsibility to adapt and not step on toes of the people of the country you moved into. CTDA itself turned its back on real tailors, so what they say may not be worth anything. Some Americans use custom for high class tailoring, because that is what it has always been here as what you call full bespoke. Your coming here and changing the words just adds to the confusion. In the past tailors just called it was it is. The more details the more it cost. Better cloth the more it cost. That way the poor got bespoke as did the rich and all in between, each paying what they wanted of what they could. In this country it is custom. In recent history manufactures have been added, such as rtw and mtm. Mtm is just a higher class of rtw.

I grew up hearing skräddare and bespoke and wondered if custom was the same. And it is! But, like other countries, with different methods and expectations, but equal. All countries have their own methods of describing tailoring. Although, I'm not sure all countries have tailors in them anymore, so names are being lost. A smart tailor learns everything he can from every country. Some old tailors around here are amazed at what they learned from tailors from different countries. There are experts in every country, not just SR. From my point of view it isn't flying a flag of certain tailors, like SR, but being the best.

 

[David Reeves]



Maybe you should go talk to the CTDA and see what they have to say. One of the problems your having is you are basing your thoughts on SR tailoring, which is only one kind. If you travel around the world and look back in history SR is johnny come lately. SR itself has grabbed from history and applied it to their styles- changing it now and then. The tailoring that I come from says there are no tailors on SR anymore because of house styles, machines, and even fuse. At best they would be called lesser tailors. Sewing machines gives a manufactured feel. Is fuse because of lack of skill? House styles, again, goes back to manufactures. Now, what real tailors are left on SR? Are they really just a bunch of high class manufacturers? If you could raise from the dead some SR tailors from a hundred years ago would they agree with me? There are some mediterranean tailors who tailor quite different than SR, but then they are in a different climate. Because they do it different has nothing to do with if they are or are not tailors. Methods meet the needs or wants. And then there are custom clothes makers who are not tailors at all, but do splendid work. You must remember that tailors have made for all classes of males in the past, and not just the high end. People with little income would have been getting fents for cloth, less pad stitching, some places less stitches, and so on to cut the cost, but still bespoke. Your coming here and calling bespoke custom for lower classes is pretty rude when we here call bespoke, what it is, custom for even the higher classes! When you move to another country it is your responsibility to adapt and not step on toes of the people of the country you moved into. CTDA itself turned its back on real tailors, so what they say may not be worth anything. Some Americans use custom for high class tailoring, because that is what it has always been here as what you call full bespoke. Your coming here and changing the words just adds to the confusion. In the past tailors just called it was it is. The more details the more it cost. Better cloth the more it cost. That way the poor got bespoke as did the rich and all in between, each paying what they wanted of what they could. In this country it is custom. In recent history manufactures have been added, such as rtw and mtm. Mtm is just a higher class of rtw.
I grew up hearing skräddare and bespoke and wondered if custom was the same. And it is! But, like other countries, with different methods and expectations, but equal. All countries have their own methods of describing tailoring. Although, I'm not sure all countries have tailors in them anymore, so names are being lost. A smart tailor learns everything he can from every country. Some old tailors around here are amazed at what they learned from tailors from different countries. There are experts in every country, not just SR. From my point of view it isn't flying a flag of certain tailors, like SR, but being the best.

So you think I should just call the work custom? My only issue with that is we are English we are from Savile Row thats our heritage its what we call the kind of suit we make. Its really not marketing for us. It would be crazy to go to a high end Italian restaurant and insist they Americanize the names of the dishes. NYC is full of American custom houses using the term bespoke I don't own that word because I am English or from Savile Row but probably we are being more authentic to our heritage for using it than others.

Savile Row has always been international its not provincial, well it may have been before my time. Right now I have 3 ex Savile row trained cutters and tailors on the pay role one is Jamaican, another is Irish and another American. I have indeed worked with tailors from all over the world.

Im not saying that custom is a lower class of product but when I say Bespoke Im talking about making the kind of suit we made on Savile Row, its an authentic English Bespoke suit rightly or wrongly and thats it.

I am joining the CTDA by the way.

 

[TheTukker]



David, why not just reply: "I make bespoke suits"?

Oh oh, you didn't...

 

[patrickBOOTH]

Suits are really cool. I don't know why more people don't wear them.

 

[Big A]



.
I have been struggling for ages to try to nail down in a succinct way the differences between MTM, Custom and Bespoke. I know the differences but conveying that to the public is difficult in a simple way.

This seems incredibly simple to me:

MTM: We measure you, we use your measurements to fit (or tweak) a pre-existing pattern, we make a suit.

Bespoke: We measure you, we make a custom pattern for you, we make a suit.

Custom: Meaningless in the tailoring context - could mean anything, term should not be used at all.

I don't think how a suit is cut or sewn really has anything to do with it. In my opinion, the art of making an individualized pattern is what makes a suit bespoke.

If one the terms in other ways to try and play in the grey areas, one is just trying to sell the customer a service that's not really being provided. The seller is providing mass customization, but couching it as if it were individualized customization.

 

[Master Shake]

This seems incredibly simple to me:
MTM: We measure you, we use your measurements to fit (or tweak) a pre-existing pattern, we make a suit.
Bespoke: We measure you, we make a custom pattern for you, we make a suit.
Custom: Meaningless in the tailoring context - could mean anything, term should not be used at all.
I don't think how a suit is cut or sewn really has anything to do with it. In my opinion, the art of making an individualized pattern is what makes a suit bespoke.
If one the terms in other ways to try and play in the grey areas, one is just trying to sell the customer a service that's not really being provided. The seller is providing mass customization, but couching it as if it were individualized customization.

Well-put. This is how I view it as well. There will obviously be gradations under this bespoke classification in terms of hand finishing and other factors, but it would all be bespoke.

 

[greger]

History shows that all clothes were custom made by tailors or not. For tailors fit was about fitting a fashion or a persons body and tailors did pad stitching, plus tailors can do it all. Later came rtw and later came mtm, a better variation of rtw, because the pattern could be adapted before cutting, and you have more choices. RTW is of the manufactures world where most people working there only know how to make parts and not the whole. Also came along other non-tailors called alterations tailors. Like factory workers they only know a little bit, so not real tailors. Catch phrases like bespoke really don't mean any thing other than that is what Brits call custom tailoring. Another reason, nowadays, for custom tailors or bespoke tailors or grand measure tailors, and so on, is to separate real tailors from rtw world and its add ons (mtm, alterations tailors and what have you). So, Mr. Reeves, you should be clearing up the questions and not be adding more confusion. If you want to fly the British flag for some of your tailored goods by calling it bespoke, then do so. But you should say, "Other custom tailoring that I do are these cheaper models". Why? Because before rtw bespoke tailors made cheaper models. It was still bespoke, just not the high class.

 

[greger]



Says who?
The American Heritage College Dictionary (1997) gives the first sense of "bespoke" as "ordered in advance." The first adjectival sense of "custom" is "made to order."
The Concise Oxford English Dictionary (2004) gives the first sense of "bespoke" as "made to order." "Custom" as an adjective is not defined, but "custom-built" is defined as "made to a particular customer's order."
So, according to ordinary US and Britsh usage, you're right, "bespoke" roughly means "custom." But ordinary usage in both countries also says that non-MTM MTO counts as bespoke. But since you deny that regular MTM or MTO counts as custom, this doesn't help your position. In fact, it helps mine a lot more than yours. I said that custom is the genus of which bespoke, semi-bespoke, and MTM are species, with MTO a fuzzy case. So I agree with ordinary usage about the definition of "custom." I just disagree about the definition of "bespoke."
So if anyone in this debate is abusing ordinary language, it's not me.
Are you instead using "custom" and "bespoke" as technical terms, so that "bespoke" requires a from-scratch pattern and several fittings? In that case, what's fair to say is that some experts in the US use "custom" as a synonym for "bespoke" and others don't.
There is a good reason for distinguishing between the technical senses of "bespoke" and "custom." It's useful to have a word that captures all of bespoke, semi-bespoke, and regular MTM. "Custom" is the most natural word to use for that, given the dictionary definitions, and that Savile Row is the world's acknowledged center of tailoring and they have for hundreds of years used "bespoke" but not "custom" to refer to from-scratch pattern with several fittings.

The dictionary people kinda messed up when it comes to telling bespoke concerning English tailors. Mahon tells it pretty well. What he says I probably heard a decade before he was even born. And the person who told me might have been told it in the 1890s. The dictionary people still haven't caught up. Anyway, I think the word tailoring means custom and tossing the word bespoke or custom or something else in is to separate real tailoring from fake tailoring, such as alterations tailors, which aren't tailors at all or rtw or mtm. Before rtw there were no alterations tailors or mtm so no need for a pre-word. Just 'Tailor' said it all.

 

[David Reeves]



History shows that all clothes were custom made by tailors or not. For tailors fit was about fitting a fashion or a persons body and tailors did pad stitching, plus tailors can do it all. Later came rtw and later came mtm, a better variation of rtw, because the pattern could be adapted before cutting, and you have more choices. RTW is of the manufactures world where most people working there only know how to make parts and not the whole. Also came along other non-tailors called alterations tailors. Like factory workers they only know a little bit, so not real tailors. Catch phrases like bespoke really don't mean any thing other than that is what Brits call custom tailoring. Another reason, nowadays, for custom tailors or bespoke tailors or grand measure tailors, and so on, is to separate real tailors from rtw world and its add ons (mtm, alterations tailors and what have you). So, Mr. Reeves, you should be clearing up the questions and not be adding more confusion. If you want to fly the British flag for some of your tailored goods by calling it bespoke, then do so. But you should say, "Other custom tailoring that I do are these cheaper models". Why? Because before rtw bespoke tailors made cheaper models. It was still bespoke, just not the high class.

I do this actually. Although the other way round the mid range suit is pushed more and then I do the higher end now starting at 4k. A lot of my clients are new to custom so those prices can scare some people off. It really depends who you talk to, You can quote 4k for bespoke and some people that are used to very high end suits think its great, some people expect you to sell a custom suit for $200.

 

[PeterMetro]

The humblebrags in this thread are outstanding!

 

[David Reeves]



The humblebrags in this thread are outstanding!

Lolz.

My mum put lol in a text the other day I couldn't believe it. Who taught her to do that?

 

[Stagger Lee]

The Brooklyn Tailors suits are great! We cary their garments off the rack at Stel's in Boston. Many of our customers have gone directly to him for MTM after buying one of their suits that we offer. He can do more than the short skinny style that he normally offers off the rack. We have had nothing but positive experiences with his garments and customer service.