~The Plan~

[Noesis]

I'm not as big of a believer in cardio as many people, even with my slow metabolism. Even when I'm really trying to drop fat, I never do anymore than two or three H.I.I.T. sessions a week for my cardio. Long distance running (to me) has prooven to be more taxing on the body than benefitial. I think a lot of people overdo cardio, and don't worry enough about what they are doing in the kitchen. People always tell me "Well, regular cardio is great for my heart and lungs".... but that's not really true either. Aerobic workouts work your oxidative metabolism's efficiency, not your cardiorespitory fitness (heart and lungs). I'm sure that comment will raise some heads, but I'm not knocking people who like to run, it's great exercise, but I think it's overdone as a tool for weightloss. I really find it burns people out when they overdo it (both mentally and physically). A 3-day split and cardio a few times a week is sufficient while trying to drop the weight, while trying to add mass cardio shouldn't be done more than once a week (and should be HIIT cardio in my opinion). Regular slow walking is great, and actually has been shown to aid in recovery! I always try to walk at least 10-20min. a day.

Also, Brian's comments about dedication are important. This is a process, and loosing more than 1-2-lbs a week is unhealthy. Start slow and don't overdo it, or you'll get burnt out. Listen to your body, it's smarter than all of us. The more you get concerned with your health, the more your going to start to learn about your body. It sounds goofy, but listening to your body is going to become easier and easier and eventually you'll be able to use it as a tool in aiding your progress.

*edit*
Almost forgot, Brian also made a good point about your nutrition. Like I said earlier, that's really something you need to get in check. Maybe someone will chime in that is qualified to give some decent diet advice. If they don't, maybe I'll make some recommendations later for ya.

 

[drizzt3117]

The issue I see with this is on the nutrition side, combined with the weight loss requirement.

If he's going to have a high enough caloric diet so as to be able to add mass, he's likely not going to have a low enough caloric intake to lose weight, IMO.

While that might be OK if he had a longer time period, losing 1 lb a week or so is only going to get him to 265 and I don't see more weight loss than that while doing a lot of heavy lifting. Also, the tendency to eat more to recover from workouts is there as well.

Also, I'm not sure about the viability of HIIT at 280 lb. I would think heart issues (even at 18) could be a concern.

My thoughts would be as follows.

Diet (get someone to help you plan this) for a daily caloric deficit of 1000. (For someone at 280 I imagine this is only about a 25-40% reduction in calories)

30 minutes of running or elliptical per day (~350 calories)

15 minutes of body-weight exercises (~150 calories)

ECA stack (~150 calories)

Even this regimen is only going to cause a total caloric deficit of 1650 calories daily. Over 15 weeks, it's enough to drop 50 lbs, with all else equal, but as others have mentioned, the DIET portion of this would be the most important, and sticking to diet/exercise regimens is a challenge for some.

 

[knucks]

I would not advise an ECA stack.

I don't like people who depend on supplements to lose weight..after all, if the diet sucks nothing will help.

 

[Noesis]

Originally Posted by drizzt3117

Also, I'm not sure about the viability of HIIT at 280 lb. I would think heart issues (even at 18) could be a concern.

Yeah, at that weight probably some walking would be best. Half hour or so on days he's not in the weight room.

I'm a big believer in "walks," regardless of bodyfat percentage. It's low intensity, even aids in recovery, get's the blood flowing, allows for some thinking and burns some calories in the process. Powerwalking (with the arms swinging and ****) is too lame for me, but a brisk walk is awesome exercise. I sometimes like to do weighted walks (I throw some dumbells into my backpack). Just some food for thought.

 

[drizzt3117]

Originally Posted by knucks

I would not advise an ECA stack.

I don't like people who depend on supplements to lose weight..after all, if the diet sucks nothing will help.

The advantage of an ECA stack is that it should decrease appetite, so it may help in enforcing the diet. I'm not a huge believer in weight-loss supplements but I think it could help if you're going to start a significant amount of cardio because exercise is going to stimulate appetite otherwise.

Noesis,

I agree with the walking and I think it will go a long way in helping to lose weight, as well. I also like walking for recovery.

I just think a concentration on cardio and body weight exercises will help a lot, maybe light weight work, but I think heavy weights are going to tend to lead to more caloric intake for the purposes of recovery.

 

[Jared]

So just out of curiousity, Techno-Elf, what did you end up doing this morning in the midst of this raging debate?

 

[whacked]

Originally Posted by Violinist

there's absolutely no sane reason to only do 10 minutes of each activity. You need sustained cardio activity... what you're proposing will just break that up.

Just go to the gym in the morning, do an hour of cardio before you've eaten anything. Then, at night, go do your weights and possibly cardio after that. If you want to meet your goal by May, I'd do that.

With regards to your diet, don't lie to yourself. If you're 18 years old and 280 lbs, you certainly don't have a "fast" metabolism. Go see a trainer man, because right now you're going nowhere fast.

Good advice here. As someone with previous success (lost 30lbs in 3 months, and I was in okay shape to begin with), I definitely recommend doing cardio for >30 minutes at least 3 times a week (order of preference: outdoor running > treadmill running ~ elliptical >>> stationery bike). Lift on days you take a break from cardio work. Watch your diet very carefully.

At any rate, check out "A voyage from fat to lean.." just a few threads down; the guy is making some great progress.

 

[Ott]

Originally Posted by Jared

So just out of curiousity, Techno-Elf, what did you end up doing this morning in the midst of this raging debate?
I think he's in high school. This means that, no matter what anybody here has to say, he's going to go to the gym and do ab crunches and biceps curls until he passes out from exertion

(at least if my own high school gym experiences are any indication..)

Originally Posted by drizzt3117

I just think a concentration on cardio and body weight exercises will help a lot, maybe light weight work, but I think heavy weights are going to tend to lead to more caloric intake for the purposes of recovery.
why? Cardio doesn't burn that many calories (as you said yourself a few posts up). Now of course cardio is important for other reasons, but lifting with heavy weights will help him build muscle at the same time so he doesn't look like a scarecrow when he's done. The main thing is that, if he wants to lose weight, he should be very meticulous about his diet. You're right when you say he'll need more calories for recovery when doing the big compound lifts. Therefore he needs to get those calories from healthy foods but still run a slight caloric deficit. Also most body weight exercises are basically useless. You're not putting enough overload on your muscles to build them, and you aren't getting your heart rate up to a point where it counts as cardio. Worst of both worlds imho.

 

[drizzt3117]

Originally Posted by Ott

(at least if my own high school gym experiences are any indication..)why? Cardio doesn't burn that many calories (as you said yourself a few posts up). Now of course cardio is important for other reasons, but lifting with heavy weights will help him build muscle at the same time so he doesn't look like a scarecrow when he's done.

I disagree with this. Cardio will burn some calories, but it will also help build (probably slowly) his aerobic capacity so he will have a bit more wind to do activities. He can turn up the intensity on his cardio to where it will start to burn significant amounts of calories. I just don't see a weight routine being successful if his first goal is weight loss.

The main thing is that, if he wants to lose weight, he should be very meticulous about his diet. You're right when you say he'll need more calories for recovery when doing the big compound lifts. Therefore he needs to get those calories from healthy foods but still run a slight caloric deficit.

I just don't see this happening if you're lifting heavy weights.

Also most body weight exercises are basically useless. You're not putting enough overload on your muscles to build them, and you aren't getting your heart rate up to a point where it counts as cardio. Worst of both worlds imho.

You're building core strength, which will help with any exercises in the future. I also disagree that you're not going to be able to put enough stress on your body, esp at 280 lb. Do you think he's going to be able to bench 280 lb now, or in the immediate future? While a pushup doesn't exactly translate to bench press, it's going to be working the triceps in a similar way, and it's a relatively low impact exercise that will help with burning calories while improving core strength.

 

[Noesis]

Originally Posted by drizzt3117

I disagree with this. Cardio will burn some calories, but it will also help build (probably slowly) his aerobic capacity so he will have a bit more wind to do activities. He can turn up the intensity on his cardio to where it will start to burn significant amounts of calories. I just don't see a weight routine being successful if his first goal is weight loss.

Burning "some" calories helps, and cardio in moderation may be fine for him, but doing it four or more times per week seems to do more harm in motivation then it does good for ones body.

Originally Posted by drizzt3117

I just don't see this happening if you're lifting heavy weights.

Cardio won't require recovery?

Cardio does, I assure you. Granted, not as much as heavy compounds, but heavy compounds are going to put mass on him so that when he starts to slim down he doesn't look like Jared from Subway. He has physics on his side, and therefore will probably lift some nice numbers, and this will be rewarding and, in time, even addicting.

Originally Posted by drizzt3117

You're building core strength, which will help with any exercises in the future. I also disagree that you're not going to be able to put enough stress on your body, esp at 280 lb. Do you think he's going to be able to bench 280 lb now, or in the immediate future? While a pushup doesn't exactly translate to bench press, it's going to be working the triceps in a similar way, and it's a relatively low impact exercise that will help with burning calories while improving core strength.

At his level, pushups would probably translate into a bigger bench press and vice versa. Pushups may be difficult for him at 280-lbs, lighter weight with a bench press could be used.

I agree with doing core work, but not as the focus of his routine. Compound movements like I recommended work the core very well. If your squat goes up, your core got stronger. If your deadlift went up, your core got stronger.

 

[Ott]

Originally Posted by Noesis

I agree with doing core work, but not as the focus of his routine. Compound movements like I recommended work the core very well. If your squat goes up, your core got stronger. If your deadlift went up, your core got stronger.
beat me to it. I never had core strength until I started squatting. Also, I forgot he was 280lbs. At that weight, he won't be able to do dips, pullups, chinups, or possibly even pushups. So that pretty much eliminates all the better bodyweight exercises

 

[whacked]

Originally Posted by Ott

Cardio doesn't burn that many calories (as you said yourself a few posts up).
I beg to differ.

Originally Posted by drizzt3117

30 minutes of running or elliptical per day (~350 calories)

15 minutes of body-weight exercises (~150 calories)

I'm fairly certain you (1) underestimate the caloric expenditure of cardio activities and (2) overstate that of body-weight exercises.
http://www.calorie-count.com/calories/activity/343.html
That's the number of calories a 150lbs person would burn running at 7mph, a very doable speed even for beginners. Keep in mind the OP weighs 280lbs, so it wouldn't be a stretch at all for him he to burn 700-800 calories for every 30 minutes running/elliptical machine.
I don't have the article on hand, but I read somewhere that the actual energy expenditure of doing push-ups isn't that impressive.

 

[Noesis]

Originally Posted by Ott

beat me to it. I never had core strength until I started squatting.

Also, I forgot he was 280lbs. At that weight, he won't be able to do dips, pullups, chinups, or possibly even pushups. So that pretty much eliminates all the better bodyweight exercises

Yeah, damn. I would probably substitute the dips with a close-grip bench and the pull-ups with a lat-pulldown for him.

It's tough.

 

[drizzt3117]

Originally Posted by whacked

I beg to differ.



I'm fairly certain you (1) underestimate the caloric expenditure of cardio activities and (2) overstate that of body-weight exercises.
http://www.calorie-count.com/calories/activity/343.html
That's the number of calories a 150lbs person would burn running at 7mph, a very doable speed even for beginners. Keep in mind the OP weighs 280lbs, so it wouldn't be a stretch at all for him he to burn 700-800 calories for every 30 minutes running/elliptical machine.
I don't have the article on hand, but I read somewhere that the actual energy expenditure of doing push-ups isn't that impressive.

I'm judging by my own numbers. I'm currently about 215 and burn about 7-800 calories per hour depending on my intensity.

7 mph? for a 280 lb person? That's a 9 minute mile... I don't see that happening. use a 15 minute mile, I think, for starters...

My normal cardio routine is running 30 minutes at 6 mph once a week and intervals twice a week on days that I don't lift. I'm currently lifting three days a week. I think that's going to be way too much for someone who is just starting out, though.

 

[Violinist]

What kind of caloric intake would you guys recommend for him?

I think if he wants to lose weight fast he'd have to do about 1500 a day, and probably 60% of that from protein, since he doesn't to be losing lean mass.

I'm trying to lose weight so I do cardio twice a day plus I lift. It's very hard to do but it's a successful program. I must say though that you have to be very disciplined to do this... not to mention I pretty much eat the same thing every day. (ie chicken, broccoli, sweet potato).