~The Plan~

[Ott]

Originally Posted by whacked

Exactly. Drop the unhealthy items, make good food choices and you can actually lose weight/get lean while eating more. How do you like that?

haha yeah, I was going to quote that too.

Originally Posted by Techno-Elf

Ott Im not starving my body at all. I usually eat less than this I have no clue why Im fat, I dont eat much and and dont have big protions..... What do you think about that? How many calories would u say that was. Also i dont care if I loose muscle as long as Im thin then Ill lean up..
Your body is in starvation mode, so almost every calorie you put into it is stored into fat. You need to eat more, and more often, but mainly you need to eat BETTER. Track your calories, you might be surprised. also, weight training will: A) help in terms of calories burned B) build muscle, which will also increase your metabolism (you know, that thing you've been killing for years) C) will prevent you from becoming "skinny fat". Lots of guys look like this, they're skinny and weak but still have manboobs and a slight gut. No one wants this. also, you need to get the word "leaned up" out of your vocabulary. There's no such thing as becoming lean in the way most people think of it (HIGHER REPS = TONE.. no); when you think lean you think of someone who has muscle and a low body fat %. You won't really achieve either with what you're doing.

Originally Posted by drizzt3117

Well, I do think with that diet and exercise routine (assuming he could maintain it) he would lose the weight he wants.
Sure. I could also lose weight by being on a diet where I have one meal a day at Mcdonald's- I'd just keep my calories lower than what I burn. If you're running a calorie deficit, you'll lose weight. This doesn't mean there aren't bad ways to go about this. In fact, even saying "losing weight" is misleading. No one actually wants to lose weight.. if they did, they'd cut off their legs. When someone says they want to lose weight, they mean "bad weight" ie fat. His program is an unhealthy, inefficient way of doing this imho.

 

[drizzt3117]

Originally Posted by Ott

haha yeah, I was going to quote that too.Your body is in starvation mode, so almost every calorie you put into it is stored into fat. You need to eat more, and more often, but mainly you need to eat BETTER.

Track your calories, you might be surprised.

also, weight training will:
A) help in terms of calories burned
B) build muscle, which will also increase your metabolism (you know, that thing you've been killing for years)
C) will prevent you from becoming "skinny fat". Lots of guys look like this, they're skinny and weak but still have manboobs and a slight gut. No one wants this.

also, you need to get the word "leaned up" out of your vocabulary. There's no such thing as becoming lean in the way most people think of it (HIGHER REPS = TONE.. no); when you think lean you think of someone who has muscle and a low body fat %. You won't really achieve either with what you're doing.Sure. I could also lose weight by being on a diet where I have one meal a day at Mcdonald's- I'd just keep my calories lower than what I burn.

If you're running a calorie deficit, you'll lose weight. This doesn't mean there aren't bad ways to go about this. In fact, even saying "losing weight" is misleading. No one actually wants to lose weight.. if they did, they'd cut off their legs. When someone says they want to lose weight, they mean "bad weight" ie fat. His program is an unhealthy, inefficient way of doing this imho.

The issue I see is that its very difficult to combine large amounts of weight loss with muscle gain. There's a number of ways to achieve that goal, but I think diet + cardio to get to a comfortable weight level, then weight lifting, would be the best course of action. Other people will of course advocate a different method.

Personally when I want to lean and drop weight as opposed to trying to gain muscle, I'll do as you suggested and go to a protein rich diet, back of the weights a bit, and up the cardio (chiefly interval stuff) but I think good core strength and cardiovascular health is necessary before that's possible. I think a low fat relatively low calorie diet + cardio will be best for significant amounts of weight loss, and that should be the first priority before going for muscle gain, but just thats my $0.02.

 

[Ott]

The issue I see is that its very difficult to combine large amounts of weight loss with muscle gain.

not when you're a beginner.

Personally when I want to lean and drop weight as opposed to trying to gain muscle

one step forward, one step back, one step forward again

(chiefly interval stuff)

this'll be tough at his weight/athletic level. So will everything else, admittedly.

but I think good core strength and cardiovascular health is necessary before that's possible.

core strength comes from lifting heavy things. Saying that you need core strength to lift weights is like saying you need to be able to run a mile before you can walk a mile. And no one is saying he should stop the cardio entirely.

I think a low fat relatively low calorie diet + cardio will be best for significant amounts of weight loss, and that should be the first priority before going for muscle gain

er.. dietary fat has almost nothing to do with body fat, aside from the fact that it's more calorie-dense than the other macro nutrients...

 

[Ott]

sorry I didn't mean to come off as a argumentative there

I'm just a big proponent of free weights. I think everyone can benefit from them.

 

[drizzt3117]

Originally Posted by Ott

not when you're a beginner.

Granted. I'll accept it's possible for him to lose 1 lb a week while building muscle but that means it will be over a year before he reaches his goal of 220 lb. I think you could lose 3+ lb a week with a low calorie diet + cardio, and then it would be somewhat easier for you to gain muscle without all that bulk to drag around.

 

[drizzt3117]

Originally Posted by Ott

sorry I didn't mean to come off as a argumentative there

I'm just a big proponent of free weights. I think everyone can benefit from them.

I am too, I lift heavy weights 4 times a week, I just think cardio will help him lose weight faster. I'm not advocating not lifting, just losing weight first... heh

 

[knucks]

I didn't read this thread, but he's a newbie, if he lifts weights he will be able to put on muscle while shedding fat.

newb gains. yay.

 

[drizzt3117]

Originally Posted by knucks

I didn't read this thread, but he's a newbie, if he lifts weights he will be able to put on muscle while shedding fat.

newb gains. yay.

He will, but he won't lose weight at the same rate as if he just dieted and did cardio. If he wanted to lose 20 lb, I'd say fine, go for it, but he wants to lose 60.

 

[Noesis]

Originally Posted by drizzt3117

He will, but he won't lose weight at the same rate as if he just dieted and did cardio. If he wanted to lose 20 lb, I'd say fine, go for it, but he wants to lose 60.

While his bodyfat is so high, even in caloric deficit he will be able to put muscle mass on. Especially as a beginner, like knucks said. At moderate bodyfat percents, that's just not possible. Normally you have to build the house (put muscle on in caloric excess) before you can paint it (lean up). While he is dropping weight he can do both. I can't imagine not taking advantage of that.

 

[Bandwagonesque]

I started out on the 5x5, but I couldn't resist, and had to throw in some shoulder presses, calf raises, and dips.

It's been a while since I did squats since I've been running each time I go to the gym, I never have the energy left to do leg exercises. Anyway, on my last set, 3rd rep, I lost my form, my back slipped a little, and I pinched a muscle. Hurts like a mofo now. My legs almost gave out on the 4th rep and there were no safety bars there, so I called it a day after that close call. This was only at 165 lbs too... aieeyah..

I weighed myself at the end, and my weight is at 152... probably the lowest I've ever seen it, and I've been eating like a pig the last week

I was in the sauna for a 30 mins prior to weighing in, so that probably makes a difference.

 

[Noesis]

I wrote a pretty big post and then x'd out of it by accident right before I posted. whoops. I'm gunna have to cliff note things a little bit.

First, don't do cardio on the same day that you weight train and for sure don't do it before. I've never been on a forum with more people starving themselves on sub-2000 calorie diets while doing massive amounts of cardio.

I think you need to do some research and educate yourself on training principles. Here are two books I recommend for you, one I already recommended earlier:

http://www.amazon.com/Starting-Stren...707595-1251166

http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Prog.../dp/0976805413

That's one school of training thought, another one I like and is very effective is Westside (http://www.westside-barbell.com/). There are some good articles on there too. And lot's all over the internet.

Strength training is one aspect (and doesn't need to take more than 3-4 hours out of your week), the other one is obviously cardio. Try H.I.I.T, which, in a nutshell is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-in...erval_training

And don't overdo it.

Diet is big too, obviously.

Caloric deficit in a nutshell: You can get stronger, but probably not add muscle mass unless you are a neophyte or on gear.

Caloric excess in a nutshell: You can get stronger and add weight. That weight will be a combination of muscle and fat. If the strength training program is good and properly executed and your diet isn't cupcakes it will be mostly muscle.

1-1.5g of protein per lb you weigh, regardless of your goals.

Education is where it starts.

 

[Goblin]

I would recommend strength training in a relatively high ratio vs. cardio simply because adding muscle mass makes it easier to maintain a healthy body composition in the long run. If you add a pound of muscle, that pound of muscle burns calories just sitting around, today and every day after that. If you lose a pound of fat, that doesn't do anything to help you lose the next pound of fat.

To put it bluntly, if a big fat pear-shaped dude focuses on burning calories without adding muscle, he generally turns into a smaller fat pear-shaped dude. You can't throw a rock without hitting a 140 lb man with a gut.

A 280 lb guy who cleans up his diet and trains hard on a decent, relatively abbreviated program centered on compound exercises can make *amazing* beginner's gains. Within six months, you could look like a man/god/gorilla hybrid. Just stay away from those dumb-ass "Muscle & Fiction" routines and listen to Noesis. Pro-bodybuilder-style routines are designed for guys with great genetics and five-figure-a-month "supplement" bills.

 

[KJNYC]

Listen to Noesis. The man is dropping sense on you. If you pay attention to him you will reap results. About squats and deadlifts: like alot of guys I used to blow them off, but I became friends with one of the trainers in my gym who used to squat competitively (he's got some outrageously funny stories about steriod use) and he got me wised up on squats and deadlifts. Man, it made all the difference. And I'm not trying to get big. Just to keep body fat in check and to stay lean. And I believe thoroughly in H.I.I.T.

Don't waste valuable time with ab work if you're lugging around excess body fat. Compound exercises. Cardio. Diet. Forget about isolation work. Listen to Noesis.