What martial art should I learn?

[Eason]

Teaching forms- no, I don't, because I teach boxing/kickboxing. If somebody wanted to learn taekwondo from me, and I still remember the forms, I might teach them- but only because they are a form of exercise and perfecting techniques in the forms will help with their coordination.

That's crackhead talk- another form of forms? Sparring is a lighter form of all-out competition, where you are competing against a partner whose objectives are in direct conflict with your own. Trying to hit somebody trying to hit you and avoiding getting hit are as far from forms as you can get... I don't know how you be honest with yourself could argue otherwise.

 

[mizanation]

if you don't practice your techniques on a 100% resisting opponent, you will not be able to pull off the technique in a real situation. so, to answer your question, no forms.

about the great street vs. sport debate...

yeah, boxing has rules. they wear gloves, there's a referee, there are rounds. but there's a difference between the rules in boxing and the rules, for instance, of point karate. the rules in boxing are there to protect the health of the fighters while still being able to test their abilities in a specific context--striking with their fists. in point karate, you can't continue fighting after scoring a point. the purpose of this type of fighting is to assess the execution of the technique and it assumes that one strike performed perfectly is a knockout or killing blow.

you can see which one is more realistic.

anyways, please tell me what a "real" situation is.

 

[emptym]

Eason, I'm not saying I support that position. But haven't you ever had a nay-saying friend express the view that martial arts, including boxing, are fake because in a "real fight" people will grab each other, gouge eyes, use weapons, etc.?

Mizanation knows what I'm talking about. We used to have these arguments all the time in the 80's during the ninja, martial arts craze. Miz, I agree w/ you completely on these pts. Boxing is much more realistic than point-fighting. You seem to be saying that there are degrees of realism... which is related to my point about forms. Just like some types of sparring are more realistic than others, some forms are more realistic than others. Sparring in a context with rules and referees is not the same as combat (except maybe for the occasional underground match), but it is helpful for combat, just as (imo) forms are not sparring, but can be helpful for sparring and even combat. Anything but no-holds barred combat is a stylized social construction removed from real combat--some things are just more or less removed.

By "real situations" I mean "real fights," "combat," etc. A playground fight may count to some degree, but I'm thinking more along the lines of getting jumped on the street. A soldier might have higher standards.

PS I seem to have a new spell-check function going on on SF. Is this new to you too?

 

[emptym]

PPS,
Miz, do you really practice against a 100% resisting opponent?
A person who would resist 100% would grab you in the eye or throat, elbow your nose, knee your balls, stomp your toes, bite chunks out of your flesh, etc.

 

[Eason]

emptym: yeah, sure- but people who say that aren't my friends

It's pretty easy to expose the holes in their logic- how are you going to be able to do an eye gouge if you've never tried it- and can't your opponent do the same to you? So wouldn't it be best if you had a delivery system for an eye poke, or a throat strike, perhaps like a boxing jab? And knowing how to throw the jab past people's guard and hit them with force, couldn't you just modify that jab a little bit if you needed to hit their eyes or throat? It's something you sure as hell couldn't do if you never even learned how to throw a jab, anyway. Now- if they have weapons, maybe a gun, and you worry that everybody will have them- why train in martial arts at all? Obviously there are still reasons for hand to hand combat. As for grabbing eachother- that is true of a real fight =)...

 

[Gradstudent78]

Originally Posted by emptym

A soldier might have higher standards.

Keep in mind most soliders don't usually train all that extensively for unarmed hand to hand combat, there's really no point when you have a gun and it's not really a cost effective strategy for the military to invest all that much time in it.

 

[Eason]

Indeed- MCMAP isn't too great, but it's better than nothing. Like most things in the marines, I think it's there to instill a (false?) confidence or sense of invincibility. One of my friends was in the marines and claimed that he was one of the best fighters in his unit, and I wasted him pretty easilly. I hear that the Army's H2H is a better program.

 

[globetrotter]

Originally Posted by Eason

Indeed- MCMAP isn't too great, but it's better than nothing. Like most things in the marines, I think it's there to instill a (false?) confidence or sense of invincibility. One of my friends was in the marines and claimed that he was one of the best fighters in his unit, and I wasted him pretty easilly. I hear that the Army's H2H is a better program.

if you are a rifleman, and you need to fight hand to hand, you have probrably fucked up so badly that you can't be saved now. in most military training organizations, h2h is used in training jsut to create a feeling of toughness, strenghten you up a bit.


there are two main groups that need it - people like MP's and those that provide sercurity on ships and such, and groups that do swat/anti-terror type work. but, even with that, they usually get their training in a 6 week period or so. it is limited.

 

[West24]

israels army has some pretty good H2H..krav maga.never done it though.

 

[mizanation]

emptym,

right, this is the old argument of "that triangle choke wouldn't work on the street, i'd just poke him in the eye, etc." we've actually discussed this a LOT in a separate thread. but, i don't mind going through this again.

before judo, there was jiu-jitsu. eye-gouges, groin strikes, kicks, punches, throws that break the arm, etc... were all taught and trained. the only problem was that these techniques were not trained with a 100% resisting opponent--because they were pretty dangerous. along came jigoro kano. instead of training all the techniques unrealistically, he only included the techniques that could be trained safely against a resisting opponent. the result was that judo was more effective because the techniques were trained more realistically.

how do you catch someone with that lethal eye-poke when you can't even hit him with a 16 ounce glove? how do you hit someone with that lethal groin kick when your clinch game is non-existant and you get tossed to the ground the second you get into range?

i'm not saying that eye-gouges, groin kicks, biting, titty-twisting, etc., don't work. of course they work. but, it's much more important to train positional control--which is the fundamental emphasis in sports like judo, wrestling and bjj. if you can control your opponent, you will be in a better position to apply lethal titty-twisters. if all you do is train titty-twisters and neglect fundamental skills, you will not be able to pull it off.

if you have a good muay thai clinch, all you have to do is move your knee from their stomach to their groin and voila, instant lethal groin attack. if you have a good jab, all you have to do is stick out your thumb and you have a lethal eye-poke. etc. etc. however, if you just practice eye pokes and groin kicks without training boxing or clinch, you won't have the proper framework to deliver these techniques.

 

[mizanation]

eason, did you see the "human weapon" episode on the marine corps martial arts?

did you see how they taught their rolling kneebar? wow, that **** was horrible. the technique was all wrong. it was embarrasing.

 

[globetrotter]

Originally Posted by mizanation

eason, did you see the "human weapon" episode on the marine corps martial arts?

did you see how they taught their rolling kneebar? wow, that **** was horrible. the technique was all wrong. it was embarrasing.

did you see the krav episode?

 

[mizanation]

yeah, i thought the krav episode was pretty good. they weren't trying to teach rolling kneebars--which is a real, valid technique, but one that takes a pretty good base in bjj to do. i like how in krav, they just teach the bare essentials necessary for a wide variety of combat situations.

 

[emptym]

Originally Posted by Gradstudent78

Keep in mind most soliders don't usually train all that extensively for unarmed hand to hand combat, there's really no point when you have a gun and it's not really a cost effective strategy for the military to invest all that much time in it.

Right. My point in bringing up soldiers was not to say that they have great techniques. I meant there are various degrees of how serious or no-holds-barred a "real situation" might be.

Really enjoyed your previous posts on this thread GS78, globetrotter's too. Glad you're both back--and wouldn't mind your comments on my original post here.

Originally Posted by Eason

emptym: yeah, sure- but people who say that aren't my friends

It's pretty easy to expose the holes in their logic- how are you going to be able to do an eye gouge if you've never tried it- and can't your opponent do the same to you? So wouldn't it be best if you had a delivery system for an eye poke, or a throat strike, perhaps like a boxing jab? And knowing how to throw the jab past people's guard and hit them with force, couldn't you just modify that jab a little bit if you needed to hit their eyes or throat? It's something you sure as hell couldn't do if you never even learned how to throw a jab, anyway. Now- if they have weapons, maybe a gun, and you worry that everybody will have them- why train in martial arts at all? Obviously there are still reasons for hand to hand combat. As for grabbing eachother- that is true of a real fight =)...

Wow. An eye gouge as I would imagine it wouldn't be delivered like a quick punch but after grabbing someone's face and maintaining control, but the former would be impressive! Although the confusion could stem from my imprecision: I meant "gouging an eye out" but left out the out.
For weapons, I was thinking more along the lines of a brick or shirt collar...
A jujitsu instructor I had once said, "When you're in a fight, hit your opponent with the biggest think you can find... And what's bigger than the earth?" -- as he threw me to the ground...

 

[emptym]

Originally Posted by mizanation

emptym,

right, this is the old argument of "that triangle choke wouldn't work on the street, i'd just poke him in the eye, etc." we've actually discussed this a LOT in a separate thread. but, i don't mind going through this again.

before judo, there was jiu-jitsu. eye-gouges, groin strikes, kicks, punches, throws that break the arm, etc... were all taught and trained. the only problem was that these techniques were not trained with a 100% resisting opponent--because they were pretty dangerous. along came jigoro kano. instead of training all the techniques unrealistically, he only included the techniques that could be trained safely against a resisting opponent. the result was that judo was more effective because the techniques were trained more realistically.

how do you catch someone with that lethal eye-poke when you can't even hit him with a 16 ounce glove? how do you hit someone with that lethal groin kick when your clinch game is non-existant and you get tossed to the ground the second you get into range?

i'm not saying that eye-gouges, groin kicks, biting, titty-twisting, etc., don't work. of course they work. but, it's much more important to train positional control--which is the fundamental emphasis in sports like judo, wrestling and bjj. if you can control your opponent, you will be in a better position to apply lethal titty-twisters. if all you do is train titty-twisters and neglect fundamental skills, you will not be able to pull it off.

if you have a good muay thai clinch, all you have to do is move your knee from their stomach to their groin and voila, instant lethal groin attack. if you have a good jab, all you have to do is stick out your thumb and you have a lethal eye-poke. etc. etc. however, if you just practice eye pokes and groin kicks without training boxing or clinch, you won't have the proper framework to deliver these techniques.

VERY well said. Thank you.