The mafoofan and Thom Browne philosophies are not too unlike.

[gdl203]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

To be fair, modernism and minimalism do not always equate. Still, I agree, the locker loops and quirky details strike me as distinctly un-modern. It's TB's purported philosophy that strikes a modernist tone: the idea of wearing a uniform rests on the premise that an optimal clothing solution exists and variety in and of itself has no value.

Most important word bolded.

Fair point - though both modernism and minimalism are used to describe TB's work and intent.

 

[gomestar]

Originally Posted by dopey

Why does he do it at all?

My point is that it is foolish to think about Thom Browne as an intellect and his clothes as being about an idea. He is a fashion designer selling clothes.
I have never been in his store, but I have spent a good deal of time looking at the Black Fleece collection for Brooks Brothers. The "creative" process is transparent - he takes a nice design, usually culled from the classic repertoire (+1), specs good quality (+1) and then pisses on it with some design detail so you know it has been marked as Thom Browne (-5). That is why the shirts have silly locker loops on the back, as do the shoes(!) and cashmere sweaters(!). That is why a beautiful camel hair coat has a bizarre button stance down the front and a strange hood. The latter is a pity because his handling of the belt/half belt is brilliant and shows that when his intent is to do something intelligent, he can. But if he didn't do all the weird stuff, he couldn't sell it as Thom Browne.

He does it just to have fun, at least that's what he says. He doesn't think there's anything necessarily "poetic" or "haunting" about it (like art), but he thought it would be funny to put a guy in a skirt for a show - so he did! The people who take it seriously are the ones who are out of line here.

I do think his clothes are about an idea, more or less. Then again, I am more familiar with his mainline than the stuff from Brooks Brothers. His mainline does not have any locker loops, this most signature thing to scream out "Thom Browne" is simply the trim cut. And for Black Fleece, I'm not really sure how much of the design stuff is from TB, and how much is of management change from above.

 

[TheFoo]

Originally Posted by bluemagic

I don't see how Thom Browne's commercial actions detract from his interesting ideal.

It's not his commercial interests themselves that detract. The problem is that he must distinguish his products in order to sell them; so he adds things like locker loops or strips of grosgrain. These quirks do nothing to improve the functionality of the clothes, nor does TB have justifiable reasons for supplanting classical norms with them. That is the very antithesis of modernism, and it stems from TB's interest in appealing to a particular market.

 

[gdl203]

Originally Posted by gomestar

His mainline does not have any locker loops, this most signature thing to scream out "Thom Browne" is simply the trim cut.
Have a look at his mainline shoes and the red-white-blue ribbon sticking in the back to scream "look at my TB shoes)

 

[TheFoo]

Originally Posted by gdl203

Most important word bolded.

Agreed, which is why I ultimately don't like him. He's advertising the idea of a uniform to set him apart from other fashion designers, but he's actually just selling more fashion.

Originally Posted by dopey

That is interesting but Thom Browne can't advance that idea or he would advance himself out of business as a clothing salesman. Instead, he would write books.

Yes. Or he would spend more time improving his product, lowering its cost, or both.

 

[gomestar]

Originally Posted by gdl203

Have a look at his mainline shoes and the red-white-blue ribbon sticking in the back to scream "look at my TB shoes)

last time i was in the store, I saw 1 pair of shoes that were for sale. And the attention to one's feet wouldn't come from a .5" tag in the back, but from the typical short cut of the pants. If you're going to knock TB for something that apparently "screams" the maker, I can only imagine your thoughts on some easily identifiable shoes from Lobb, Alden, etc. or some of the hand sewn (and thus easily identifiable) parts of a Borrelli shirt...

 

[bluemagic]

The grosgrain lining and locker straps are subversive self-parody. The whole Black Fleece collection has quite an ironic feel; its very existence sort of mocks Brooks Brothers.

 

[TheFoo]

Originally Posted by gomestar

His mainline does not have any locker loops, this most signature thing to scream out "Thom Browne" is simply the trim cut.

Untrue. Off the top of my head, I can name at least three distinguishing TB trademarks used on his main line of clothing: (1) grosgrain facing where jacket sleeves button, (2) the use of shirt fabric to line jackets, and (3) the shortness of the pants.

 

[TheFoo]

Originally Posted by bluemagic

The grosgrain lining and locker straps are subversive self-parody. The whole Black Fleece collection has quite an ironic feel; its very existence sort of mocks Brooks Brothers.

Right. That's as anti-modern as you can be. What you've described is excessively postmodern.

 

[gdl203]

Originally Posted by gomestar

last time i was in the store, I saw 1 pair of shoes that were for sale. And the attention to one's feet wouldn't come from a .5" tag in the back, but from the typical short cut of the pants. If you're going to knock TB for something that apparently "screams" the maker, I can only imagine your thoughts on some easily identifiable shoes from Lobb, Alden, etc.

I'm just stating facts - I'm not sure why you don't want to acknowledge them.

Your point is not taken - there is really nothing (except what connoisseurs might recognize as a house last or finish/antiquing technique) that screams JL, EG or Alden. No logo or little colourful ribbon sticking out.

Even if there was, they don't pride themselves on having such a philosophy so the point does not stick.

 

[dopey]

Originally Posted by gomestar

He does it just to have fun, at least that's what he says. He doesn't think there's anything necessarily "poetic" or "haunting" about it (like art), but he thought it would be funny to put a guy in a skirt for a show - so he did! The people who take it seriously are the ones who are out of line here.
Of course. No one but people in the fashion press think of any of these shows as art. But if he were serious about a modernist, minimalist approach rather than being a designer, he wouldn't bother with the show at all. He would just make his stuff.

Originally Posted by gomestar

I do think his clothes are about an idea, more or less. Then again, I am more familiar with his mainline than the stuff from Brooks Brothers. His mainline does not have any locker loops, this most signature thing to scream out "Thom Browne" is simply the trim cut. And for Black Fleece, I'm not really sure how much of the design stuff is from TB, and how much is of management change from above.

From him, I have been told, but that is from the people at BB, who may want it to seem like TB is really behind the collection, when he isn't. But based on the substance of my discussions with them, I really do believe that TB is very active in the Black Fleece collection.

Even his mainline stuff is about him more than an idea. That is why it is distinctly retro and oddly fitting. The idea of the IBM gray flannel suit was uniformity, professionalism and deferring the garb of the presenter in favor of the presentation. TB could design a simple gray flannel suit that does just that. But the TB mainline look is not that - it is designed to call attention to itself and to the wearer as a follower of the designer by reference an idealization of a different time period. With TB, the garb is the message. I suppose that too is an idea, but it merely a commercial one. "If you wear this stuff, people will know that you are wearing TB."

 

[Nicholas]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

Untrue. Off the top of my head, I can name at least three distinguishing TB trademarks used on his main line of clothing: (1) grosgrain facing where jacket sleeves button, (2) the use of shirt fabric to line jackets, and (3) the shortness of the pants.

I thought the trousers came unhemmed or is this exclusive to the suit trousers?

 

[gomestar]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

Untrue. Off the top of my head, I can name at least three distinguishing TB trademarks used on his main line of clothing: (1) grosgrain facing where jacket sleeves button, (2) the use of shirt fabric to line jackets, and (3) the shortness of the pants.

1 - true, but I'm not undoing anybody's sleeves to look under them from afar. You know a TB jacket when you see one, but that's not because of what's under the cuffs.

2 - SOME jackets have been lined this way. Most I have seen have not been, including my own. And again, I'm not going to investigate the lining of somebody's jacket.

3 - yes, but this is my point, it's the cut that's distinguished for TB, not "locker loops" Furthermore, this is just how TB likes them, my TB pants are full length (to be exact, they're cuffed 2" exactly at the break point).

 

[dopey]

Originally Posted by bluemagic

The grosgrain lining and locker straps are subversive self-parody. The whole Black Fleece collection has quite an ironic feel; its very existence sort of mocks Brooks Brothers.
This is fashion writer talk. It doesn't really mean anything. You must actually like listening to the saleswomen in art galleries instead of just looking at them.

 

[bluemagic]

^ I've never read a fashion writer. Maybe I should? It's not so different from other art forms, is it?

I do think it's interesting that Browne is presenting this modern ideal in a postmodern manner. If he were more "serious" about it, I'm not sure it'd be possible for so many Thom Browne threads to go so far on this forum.