Sole Welting

[cbfn]

Why is Blake/Rapid not more widely used/preferred over GY?

 

[RIDER]

I forget the exact arrangement, but long ago - when machines began to replace the handmade method commercially - you could enter into an agreement with the manufacturer of the GY machinery and basically 'lease' everything for a set cost per pair made......pennies. Was a much easier way to expand your production capabilities than laying out cash and was revolutionary in it's concept. So, GY became the standard mass production method.

 

[Nick V.]



I forget the exact arrangement, but long ago - when machines began to replace the handmade method commercially - you could enter into an agreement with the manufacturer of the GY machinery and basically 'lease' everything for a set cost per pair made......pennies. Was a much easier way to expand your production capabilities than laying out cash and was revolutionary in it's concept. So, GY became the standard mass production method.

In fact , there was a stitch meter on those machines. Like an odometer on a car. That's how they would figure out the charges.

 

[DWFII]



Yes I have earned the right but i don't see that as a right as you do. It's what we do working. As/for wright? Are you retired? Semi? Answerw the questions PLease!!!!! I can not As eloquent in your writing. But, in your 30 years of teaching give us something, anything. (please do the editing for me).

No, you do not have the right. You cannot grant yourself a right that you have not earned. You can only co-opt it, only steal it. You can only pretend.

Nor do you have the right to demand that I provide answers to questions that:

1) you could find yourself. [I even provided you with a way to do that...and if that's too much trouble go along to my web page and look at the link to a few of my past students.]

2) is none of your damn business and doesn't in any way relate to the discussions at hand.

I don't provide the energy and the initiative for my students, why should I provide it for you?!

And I don't pimp out my students or my friends...esp. to people who have a history of questioning my credibility and motives.

Here's a photo of a student from Belgium and the shoes he made with me. When you can make a pair of shoes as well as he did on his first pair, you can claim the right...not until.

And should you be feeling particularly English-language challenged this morning, or haven't had your coffee, let me see if I can make this clear to you without grunting--I didn't say you didn't have a right to express your opinion...as ill-informed and bull-headed as it might be. I said you didn't have the right to question "my word or my motives...."

You may be the boss at your place but it doesn't mean nuthin' to me.

--

 

[shoefan]



I forget the exact arrangement, but long ago - when machines began to replace the handmade method commercially - you could enter into an agreement with the manufacturer of the GY machinery and basically 'lease' everything for a set cost per pair made......pennies. Was a much easier way to expand your production capabilities than laying out cash and was revolutionary in it's concept. So, GY became the standard mass production method.

Yes, this was used by United Shoe Machinery Corp, among others. USMC was a near-monopolist in the US shoemaking industry around the end of the 1800's and the 1900's. The other explanation for this pricing model is that it allowed USMC to extract a greater percentage of the shoemaking industry's revenues, as high-volume manufacturers (who used the machines say 7 days x 24 hours per day) paid more per machine (over time) than a lower volume manufacturer. In economics, this is called price discrimination, which is difficult for most companies to do successfully. Here is an article about USMC and some antitrust issues related to their leasing program: http://www.jstor.org/stable/1820095?seq=1.

Eventually, USMC's approach was found to be an antitrust violation (here is an article with some interesting data about USMC and its offerings and pricing http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/392/481/case.html).

 

[DWFII]

I suspect it's still more expensive to set up a B-R shop than a GY shop. And to some extent B-R forces you to use at least a minimal level of quality materials, although I have seen some B-R that didn't even have a leather insole or IIRC, even an insole itself...as we commonly think of it.

 

[jssdc]

No, you do not have the right. You cannot grant yourself a right that you have not earned. You can only co-opt it, only steal it. You can only pretend.

Nor do you have the right to demand that I provide answers to questions that:

1) you could find yourself. [I even provided you with a way to do that...and if that's too much trouble go along to my web page and look at the link to a few of my past students.]

2) is none of your damn business and doesn't in any way relate to the discussions at hand.

I don't provide the energy and the initiative for my students, why should I provide it for you?!

And I don't pimp out my students or my friends...esp. to people who have a history of questioning my credibility and motives.

Here's a photo of a student from Belgium and the shoes he made with me. When you can make a pair of shoes as well as he did on his first pair, you can claim the right...not until.





And should you be feeling particularly English-language challenged this morning, or haven't had your coffee, let me see if I can make this clear to you without grunting--I didn't say you didn't have a right to express your opinion...as ill-informed and bull-headed as it might be. I said you didn't have the right to question "my word or my motives...."

You may be the boss at your place but it doesn't mean nuthin' to me.

--

I remember seeing these in the bespoke thread - really beautiful (although the cuban heel is a bit dramatic). Making my own pair of shoes (and my own suit as well) is something that I would like to do one day when/if I have the time.

 

[jssdc]

Yes, this was used by United Shoe Machinery Corp, among others. USMC was a near-monopolist in the US shoemaking industry around the end of the 1800's and the 1900's. The other explanation for this pricing model is that it allowed USMC to extract a greater percentage of the shoemaking industry's revenues, as high-volume manufacturers (who used the machines say 7 days x 24 hours per day) paid more per machine (over time) than a lower volume manufacturer. In economics, this is called price discrimination, which is difficult for most companies to do successfully. Here is an article about USMC and some antitrust issues related to their leasing program: http://www.jstor.org/stable/1820095?seq=1.

Eventually, USMC's approach was found to be an antitrust violation (here is an article with some interesting data about USMC and its offerings and pricing http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/392/481/case.html).

This is super interesting. Another example of how the costs to society of monopolistic behaviour go beyond Harberger triangles. We've been wearing second-rate shoes for a century because of unfair business practices!

 

[RogerP]

Quote:
Thanks for speaking the truth Nick. With all the revisionist history going on, it's nice to hear from someone who has been here all along and knows the actual score.

 

[DWFII]



I remember seeing these in the bespoke thread - really beautiful (although the cuban heel is a bit dramatic).  Making my own pair of shoes (and my own suit as well) is something that I would like to do one day when/if I have the time.

Well, it's not my cuppa but it's what he wanted. Annonay French calf, some (minimal) antiquing, HW (of course) Baker insole, inch and a quarter cuban heel, on a last that I designed. "No plastic, no paper, no nails."

 

[shoefan]



This is super interesting.  Another example of how the costs to society of monopolistic behaviour go beyond Harberger triangles.  We've been wearing second-rate shoes for a century because of unfair business practices!

Well, if you believe that these practices led to higher costs for GYW, then perhaps they in fact led to a slower substitution of GYW for HW. However, it seems that the GYW system reduced the cost of sewing on a welt by more than 80% (from a range of 50 cents - 75 cents/pair with HW to around 10 cents with GYW), so any price premium due to the monopoly wouldn't seem to have had a material impact on the move from HW to GYW.

 

[kev777]



Quote:
Thanks for speaking the truth Nick. With all the revisionist history going on, it's nice to hear from someone who has been here all along and knows the actual score.

I, for one, am pleased that DFWII takes the time to enlighten us all sharing his experience and know how even though he is semi retired. I don't feel preached to in the slightest along with many others who have questioned him on various shoe making topics. Long may that continue, his and others valuable experience notably Bengal Chay et al is more than welcome. RogerP .... As others have alluded to your story is now very very tedious!! Your contribution here and in other threads where DFWII contributes is nothing short of, at best, asinine. You merely support Nick V no matter what bordering on being some sort of childish groupie and denigrate DFWII at every turn. For everyone's sake give it a rest and if you have nothing constructive to say then refrain from posting, you really are boring the **** off us and spoiling an otherwise interesting thread and debate!!

 

[RogerP]



I, for one, am pleased that DFWII takes the time to enlighten us all sharing his experience and know how even though he is semi retired. I don't feel preached to in the slightest along with many others who have questioned him on various shoe making topics. Long may that continue, his and others valuable experience notably Bengal Chay et al is more than welcome.

RogerP .... As others have alluded to your story is now very very tedious!! Your contribution here and in other threads where DFWII contributes is nothing short of, at best, asinine. You merely support Nick V no matter what bordering on being some sort of childish groupie and denigrate DFWII at every turn. For everyone's sake give it a rest and if you have nothing constructive to say then refrain from posting, you really are boring the **** off us and spoiling an otherwise interesting thread and debate!!

Hey kev - I'm used to piling on from the mewling sycophants - feel free to join the party. I for one am glad that Nick, Ron, Justin and a number of others have endured the inevitable slagging in order to present a balanced factual view and I will continue to encourage them to do so. I don't find their contributions boring in the least. There are no doubt many here who seek "elightenment" and wish nothing more than to sit and listen in rapt adoration to the One Voice. But there are many others who want unbiased, agenda-free information. If you don't want to hear / read such contributions then please feel free to use your scroll wheel responsibly. Sorry about your ****. Have a nice day.

 

[FlyingMonkey]

Nice to see @RIDER here. I have a pair of your Borgioli Fratelli-made boots (treccia-stitched, AKA 'Norvegese' welt, I believe) and I like them a lot. Not having taken them apart, I have no idea whether the bonwelt used in these is entirely decorative or is blake-rapid stitched. Some are, some aren't. It doesn't make any difference to how much I like the shoes, but I'm interested in the techniques. Perhaps someone, even Ron, could entighten me.

@DWFII , I took a look at some of the threads over at the Crispin Colloquoy last night and ended up going down a shoemaking rabbithole for a few hours to the despair of my wife! hanks for that, I think...

(There has actually been a lot of interesting information and discussion in the last few pages, particularly on the origins and spread of GY techniques just above, although I am wondering 1. whether NickV was drunk when he posted those two posts on the previous page (#1614 amd 1615, I think), and 2. why RogerP keeps posting here - he's not adding anything apart from noise to the conversation).

 

[kev777]

I, for one, am pleased that DFWII takes the time to enlighten us all sharing his experience and know how even though he is semi retired. I don't feel preached to in the slightest along with many others who have questioned him on various shoe making topics. Long may that continue, his and others valuable experience notably Bengal Chay et al is more than welcome.

RogerP .... As others have alluded to your story is now very very tedious!! Your contribution here and in other threads where DFWII contributes is nothing short of, at best, asinine. You merely support Nick V no matter what bordering on being some sort of childish groupie and denigrate DFWII at every turn. For everyone's sake give it a rest and if you have nothing constructive to say then refrain from posting, you really are boring the **** off us and spoiling an otherwise interesting thread and debate!!

Hey kev - I'm used to piling on from the mewling sycophants - feel free to join the party. I for one am glad that Nick, Ron, Justin and a number of others have endured the inevitable slagging in order to present a balanced factual view and I will continue to encourage them to do so. I don't find their contributions boring in the least. There are no doubt many here who seek "elightenment" and wish nothing more than to sit and listen in rapt adoration to the One Voice. But there are many others who want unbiased, agenda-free information. If you don't want to hear / read such contributions then please feel free to use your scroll wheel responsibly. Sorry about your ****. Have a nice day.

RogerP You just cant help yourself !! I , too, am glad of Ron Nick & Justin's contributions just not yours. They don't need defending nor encouraging and its not their views WE find boring my friend its YOURS !! Why do you class yourself with "them" (Ron Justin Nick) ?? They are respected here and WE will listen and interact with them as we see fit, its you who has nothing to offer !! I am no mewling sycophant and wish to join no party, I'm merely a voice who is sick to death of your mundane rants with nothing of any substance to add to the debate.

I implore you to just sit & listen and maybe, just maybe, you may learn something !!