Seattle Shopping Suggestions?

[robin]

Originally Posted by Souper

Whoa, severely disoriented.

For a long 30 seconds I was wondering when egullet changed it's color scheme. Something seemed off, thread title tipped me off. I need sleep. Hangover tomorrow.
Heh, I thought the same thing last night. I suspect Sartorially Challenged and Tokyo Slim are both eGullet members though, as I can think of no other types of people who would argue over sushi in such a way.

 

[macuser3of5]

To hell with this stupid cuisine argument: Dick's Special, Queen Anne or Capitol Hill. EOD.

edit: with fries.

 

[Sartorially Challenged]

Originally Posted by macuser3of5

To hell with this stupid cuisine argument:

Dick's Special, Queen Anne or Capitol Hill. EOD.

edit: with fries.
I like Dick's for the simple fact that it delivers exactly what it advertises at the appropriate price. Lots of drunk kids though.

It's equivalent on the East Cost would be "Five Guys Famous Burgers and Fries."

As for Tokyo Slim, if he thinks Monsoon, Tamarind Tree, Shiki and Malay Satay Hut are bizzaro, he hasn't ventured very much into the Seattle dining scene. Nancy Leson of the Seattle Times who is the only food critic I trust in Seattle (mainly because she will actually try real Asian cuisine unlike the parochial and moronic "everything-from-Europe-is-so-sophisticated" critic crowd in Seattle) is also fond of all four.

And to be clear, I am not suggesting that Red Mill Burger and Ezell's chicken are horrible or not fit for consumption. They're just average. In Seattle, however, there are no good burger or fried chicken joints, and some Seattleites think these places serve outstanding food. Since many Seattleites think their once cowtown city is the center of the universe, the best of Seattle, even if mediocre elsewhere, must be, by definition, world-class.

If someone happened to be visiting Seattle from elsewhere, there is just no reason for that person to visit these two places. Like I wrote before, average burgers in the Midwest make Red Mill Burgers look sad. Fried chicken in the South make Ezell's seem floppy and greasy.

On the other hand, Malay/Singaporean food is rare everywhere (well, outside the region of origin) and Malay Satay Hut can be a unique experience for the visitor. Its crab is better than that in SE Asia (since the superior Dungeness Crab is available inexpensively in Seattle). Monsoon, in my view, is world-class and worth a visit even for those who come from world-class metropolises. Tamarind Tree is cheap, "provincial" Vietnamese food done well with a great (inside) ambiance to boot. One usually finds the same kind of real Vietnamese food at Little Saigon's of the world (say Eden Center in Fairfax outside DC), but those places always look "dodgy" or sloppy to most Americans (and often run by Vietnamese gangs).

I won't discuss Shiki vs. Shiro's anymore, other than to point out the following:

I gather from Tokyo Slim's long apologia to my two questions that 1) Shiro-san does not have a fugu license and 2) all the people who wrote bad reviews of Shiro are also in the bizarro world that I apparently inhabit.

 

[Tokyo Slim]

You are arguing in circles anyways, since you won't address any of the items I bring up, and continue to regurgitate silly arguments with no possible consequential merit. Seems like an appropriate time for a hasty retreat from this discussion.


To address the most important of your points concisely, since it seems you were too lazy to read my actual posts:

People who sit at tables at sushi restaraunts are idiots. As when eating at any world class sushi establishment, you eat at the Sushi bar, sitting in front of the master. If you are an idiot, I nullify your review on citysearch.

Fugu licenses are meaningless unless you are serving fugu. Having one doesn't make you a better chef, and is no substitute for years of experience.

Fugu is genrally overrated, and not worth the effort to get it in the US. I feel that perhaps Yamamoto-san is capitalizing on a gimmick to sell his restaurant, which is fine, but I'd rather be known for the superior freshness of my fish and knowledge, than being able to serve a rare gimmick.

There are 9 reviews of Shiki. There are over 30 reviews of Shiro's. Citysearch is also about the LEAST reliable rating system known to man. Lets see how it looks when you get 3x as many reviews...

 

[Sartorially Challenged]

People who sit at tables at sushi restaraunts are idiots. As when eating at any world class sushi establishment, you eat at the Sushi bar, sitting in front of the master. If you are an idiot, I nullify your review on citysearch.

Somebody is a legend in his own mind.

I guess his logic is "Food is only good at the bar at Shiro's; if your food was horrible because you sat at a table, why, it's because you are an idiot, not because the restaurant served bad food." So all the bad reviews of Shiro's are due to "idiots," you see.

Rest assured, other readers, that the food will be just as good at table-side at Shiki as at the bar.

I feel that perhaps Yamamoto-san is capitalizing on a gimmick to sell his restaurant, which is fine

Now who is engaging in libelous conduct? Your argument is going from sad to pathetic. You haven't even tried Shiki and you are denigrating someone for his hard-won status to prepare something difficult. You have no shame (and no taste, for that matter, culinary or otherwise).

Up until this point I was sure that it was because of your astronomically superior taste buds,

Yup, first instincts are usually right. You should stick to that, Tokyo Slim.

BTW, another restaurant that is worth a try during a visit to Seattle IF AND ONLY IF one's own area lacks a Moroccan restaurant is Marrakesh. To be clear I am not suggesting this is a superior Moroccan restaurant. But if where one lives lacked one and one happened to visit Seattle, this is one of only two places in town that serves Bastillah and Moroccan mint tea.

Anyway, if anyone is interested in more restaurant recommendations, feel free to PM.

Lastly, for those of you in the DC-NoVA area, check out Tyler Cowen's ethnic dining guide. His is the most comprehensive review of ethnic cuisine in the area. Aside from being an outstanding economist and an epicurean, he is also a fan of The Sartorialist! (It goes without stating that I share his approach to food.)

Good luck. I am off to... eat.

 

[Tokyo Slim]

Oh, and from what I gather, Yamamoto-san worked under Shiro at both Nikko and Shiro's before opening up Shiki. At least, thats what I hear from my reliable sources inside the Japanese community of Seattle. AKA - dad.

 

[Tokyo Slim]

Originally Posted by Sartorially Challenged

Somebody is a legend in his own mind. I guess his logic is "Food is only good at the bar at Shiro's; if your food was horrible because you sat at a table, why, it's because you are an idiot, not because the restaurant served bad food." So all the bad reviews of Shiro's are due to "idiots," you see. Rest assured, other readers, that the food will be just as good at table-side at Shiki as at the bar.
I actually said, that people going to Shiro's expecting to get the best sushi, and who don't sit at the bar are idiots. The food is still very good, regardless. Though the sushi probably isn't made by Shiro if you aren't sitting at the bar, just as, if there were 80 people in Shiki, Yamamoto-san couldn't make sushi, recommendations, and give personal attention to everyone, which is what separates people who really enjoy sushi as an experience from those who eat it because its trendy. The same applies at any sushi restaurant. If you want the best, you sit at the bar. Period.

Now who is engaging in libelous conduct? Your argument is going from sad to pathetic. You haven't even tried Shiki and you are denigrating someone for his hard-won status to prepare something difficult. You have no shame (and no taste, for that matter, culinary or otherwise).

You have been denigrating Shiro-san for a few pages now, which I'm sure that Yamamoto-san would be very displeased to hear if he were around. I maintain my assertion that being known as "the restaurant that serves fugu" is less desirable than being known as "the restaurant that serves the freshest fish and has the most knowledgable sushi chef" Never once did I say that Yamamoto-san (whom I might have met when he was at Shiro's, but have never eaten at his current restaurant) couldn't do the latter instead of the prior if he chose. I only maintain that as long as Shiro is active, that title is an uphil battle for anyone to acheive.

Yup, first instincts are usually right. You should stick to that, Tokyo Slim.

Perhaps you didn't detect the note of sarcasm in my statement. My first instinct was to tell you that you that you are a pompous elitist jerk who hasn't stopped insulting Seattle, its residents, and its culinary scene since his very first post in this thread. Even though I attempted to be civil in the beginning and give you a chance to explain yourself, you have used the opportunity to consistently make biased, erroneous, and derogatory statements about places I have recommended, gone out of your way, in fact, to dismiss and insult everything I've said, and are generally just being an asshole. Your pseudo-superior attitude is eclipsed only by your ego, bias, and ignorance. It's not as if you are the only person ever to travel outside of Washington, yet you consistently talk down to me as if I'd never been outside of Seattle, never eaten fried chicken in the south, don't know what a good burger tastes like, and that my, and anyone who lives in Seattle's opinions are not valid simply because you happen to view us as some sort of backwater colonial outpost. Well, screw your ****** attitude back into whatever socket you pulled it out of. So from now on I will go with my first instinct, as it was correct.

 

[LSeca]

I think a McDonald's super value meal in Seattle will taste the same as one bought in any other major city.

 

[Tokyo Slim]

Originally Posted by LSeca

I think a McDonald's super value meal in Seattle will taste the same as one bought in any other major city.

It may just be psychological, but when in Japan, I find the Big Mac to actually be superior to that of its American brethren. I have the sneaking suspicion that the Japanese pride in assembling a product translates well to the McDonald's kitchen.

 

[LSeca]

Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim

I have the sneaking suspicion that the Japanese pride in assembling a product translates well to the McDonald's kitchen.

Ha, good call I think you are right. Also, eating a Bigmac with chopsticks may add to the dinning experience.

 

[Tokyo Slim]

Originally Posted by Sartorially Challenged

Shiki is often packed with visiting Japanese businessmen/expatriate crowd. Just make sure to ask for Chef Yamamoto to work on your food, not one of his sous-chefs, who are not as skilled as he is.

Originally Posted by Sartorially Challenged

Rest assured, other readers, that the food will be just as good at table-side at Shiki as at the bar.
I would just like to point out that your original statement echoes my own about Shiro's, while your later statement (when you decided to be combative and petty) contradicts it. I just wanted to save this for posterity, since when you realize this error, you will likely erase it. It is indeed possible to get a less than satisfactory meal at any restaurant. There has never been an establishment anywhere who can please everyone 100% of the time. Anyone who argues else wise is not someone you can trust.

 

[Sartorially Challenged]

You have been denigrating Shiro-san for a few pages now, which I'm sure that Yamamoto-san would be very displeased to hear if he were around.

Ever hear of inversion? I did not denigrate Shiro Kashiba. I simply pointed out my observation that 1) I did not like my first and only experience at Shiro's restaurant. I thought the food was mediocre and the price high. 2) I also pointed out that quite a few others found the food and experience lacking. I did not say Shiro Kashiba was unskilled or gimmicky or whatever.

Your response has been to personalize the issue, call me names and to attempt, pathetically, to invalidate views of others by simply calling them idiots and, worse, denigrating Ken Yamamoto, whom you do not know and whose food you have not tasted.

Then you desperately try to change the subject by calling me an elitist and using vulgar language. Well, I guess I am an elitst if I look down on those you cannot argue logically and must rely on name-calling and vulgar language to attempt to make their points.

Simply put, ad hominem is a sign of a poor argument; vulgar language that of immaturity. You convict yourself with your own words.

I have the sneaking suspicion that the Japanese pride in assembling a product translates well to the McDonald's kitchen.

Ha. That must be why my in-laws refuse to eat American fastfood in Japan and indulge in the same when they go to Singapore instead.

I would just like to point out that your original statement echoes my own about Shiro's, while your later statement (when you decided to be combative and petty) contradicts it.

I just wanted to save this for posterity, since when you realize this error, you will likely erase it.

My, my. You really have 2nd grade level reading comprehension skills, don't you?

I simply pointed out that Ken Yamamoto is more skilled than his sous-chefs. Yamamoto still makes most of the food for his rather small restaurant (he wouldn't expand to 80 seats unless he could scale the quality). Very rarely does his sous-chef makes food. Even in the latter case, I have not found the food to be noticeably inferior (I notice the difference, of course).

You, on the other hand, called anyone who sits at a table at Shiro's "idiots" when confronted by the fact that some reviewers found the food there poor (to be fair, I never found it that bad; merely middling which I thought was at odds with the high prices).

As for erasing past statements, I'd point you to a word in the dictionary called "projection."

 

[Tokyo Slim]

Originally Posted by Sartorially Challenged

I tried Shiro once and was horrified. Ran back immediately to Shiki to cleanse the palate and erase the memory.

Originally Posted by Sartorially Challenged

I do not think Shiro's is "considered some of the best in the USA" or "so highly regarded in international Sushi circles" besides, the real test of a fish man isn't Sushi, it's Sashimi).
The above was in response to my mention that Shiro himself is one of the most highly regarded Sushi chefs in the US, which he most undeniably is. Not only is he one of if not THE longest tenured master sushi chef in America, and was partly responsible for popularizing the cuisine outside LA. he has trained dozens of people who have gone on to open their own acclaimed restaurants, including your favorite. And regardless of your assertion, people from Japan DO come to visit Shiro's when they are in town. Your assertion that you never insulted him is a lie, plain and simple. Not that anyone should be surprised since almost all your assertions in this thread have been pretty roundly proven to be false and misleading.

Originally Posted by Sartorially Challenged

Ever hear of inversion? I did not denigrate Shiro Kashiba. I simply pointed out my observation that 1) I did not like my first and only experience at Shiro's restaurant. I thought the food was mediocre and the price high. 2) I also pointed out that quite a few others found the food and experience lacking. I did not say Shiro Kashiba was unskilled or gimmicky or whatever.
You continue to try and mislead, as I pointed out in the above post. And it amuses me to no end. If you go back and read my statement that you found so offensive, I said that I felt that perhaps Ken Yamamoto is relying too heavily on the gimmick of serving Fugu to sell his restaurant. Serving Fugu in the US is a marketing gimmick, plain and simple, as I explained earlier since as far as I know, you cannot get fresh Fugu here. The Fugu that Shiki is so renowned for serving is either A: pre-cleaned in Japan (removal of the poisonous internal organs, leaving only the non-toxic meat and the skin, which may contain some toxin, but on the whole is not that hazardous), inspected by the Shimonoseki Fugu Export Association in Yamaguchi, frozen, shipped to Wako in NYC (the only legal Fugu importer), thawed and inspected again by the FDA inspectors, and then re-frozen, whereupon it is shipped to Seattle, your highly trained chef skins it and cuts it into little pieces. The FDA does not allow the organs to be imported inside the fish, due to the high levels of tetrodoxin. Any fish found to have natural levels of the toxin in it is barred from import into the US. B: A non-toxic relative of the blowfish varieties served in Japan referred to as the Northern Puffer or "Sea Squab", caught off the Atlantic coast. There are no regulations banning the sale of it in the US, and supposedly it tastes and looks very similar to some of the various types of fugu available in Japan, minus the toxin. Japan will not import it though, and therefore, they don't eat it over there. Either way, I still maintain that serving it is more of a marketing move (or gimmick) than anything else, since it is not the same experience as in Japan, and in practice does not require the same skill day in and day out that they must use when serving it over there. This in no way belies any skill Yamamoto-san may have with a knife and selecting real, fresh fish, and he HAS passed the Japanese test to serve it there... which is commendable, but that alone does not make one a superior sushi chef. I just see it as a blatant marketing move, which will probably ultimately prove successful, just because people are unaware that what they are eating is a controlled, sanitized, and twice frozen fish that bears little resemblance to the fresh, relatively dangerous product which makes the customer rely on the skill of the chef who prepares it.

Your response has been to personalize the issue, call me names and to attempt, pathetically, to invalidate views of others by simply calling them idiots and, worse, denigrating Ken Yamamoto, whom you do not know and whose food you have not tasted.

The only thing I said before you decided to get nasty with me was to say that I thought you might be delusional and wasn't going to trust your restaurant recommendations because you insisted on talking to me like I'm some sort of backwater hick and belittling everything I said. "I grew up eating all kinds of food"? (so I know more about food than you do, and your opinions aren't valid - was the tone of your previous post). Thus implying that I grew up eating what, gruel? Oh, I forgot, I'm from Seattle, which was a "backwards cow-town before Microsoft and Grunge" which is both untrue and unfair. I'm sorry Mr. world traveler, but your condescending attitude and superiority complex are bullshit and I'm sorry you don't like being called out on it, but as long as you keep going, I will.

Then you desperately try to change the subject by calling me an elitist and using vulgar language. Well, I guess I am an elitst if I look down on those you cannot argue logically and must rely on name-calling and vulgar language to attempt to make their points.

You are the one desperately trying to change the subject here buddy, not me. You either have the WORST luck at restaurants ever, or you are just making up derogatory and misleading information (handily disproven, by critical review, I might add) because you think it makes you sound more refined, when in actuality it makes you sound like a snobbish fool who talks bad about places because he thinks them beneath them. Your quote about how you "enjoy" eating "peasant food" (Aglio e Olio which while traditionally food for peasants, is oftentimes trendy bullshit, hell LOBSTER used to be "peasant" food.) after you recoiled at my mention of hamburgers and fried chicken was extraordinarily entertaining.

Simply put, ad hominem is a sign of a poor argument; vulgar language that of immaturity. You convict yourself with your own words.

And I convict you with them as well. Since the poor arguments you've been making in this thread using lies, misleading information, and elitist rhetoric have easily been undone by this immature, vulgar, man with poor arguing skills.

Ha. That must be why my in-laws refuse to eat American fastfood in Japan and indulge in the same when they go to Singapore instead.

I don't believe I was talking to you. Would you like to pick a fight on another subject now?

My, my. You really have 2nd grade level reading comprehension skills, don't you?

Actually, in the first grade, I was blessed with fifth grade reading comprehension skills. When they tested again in fifth grade, I was at college level. I skipped a grade, and was consistently ranked in the top 5% of the nation on the language portions of all standardized tests. I scored a perfect 800 on the language part of the SAT, though my crappy math score ruined my chances of getting into a good college, I didn't apply to any, so it didn't bother me much. You can insult my lack of math skills, the poor decision making of my youth, or my lack of motivation, but my reading comprehension is clearly not my weak point. Your petty and uncreative attempt at insulting me belies your relative lack of mental acuity. I.E. you are just repeating yourself.

I simply pointed out that Ken Yamamoto is more skilled than his sous-chefs. Yamamoto still makes most of the food for his rather small restaurant (he wouldn't expand to 80 seats unless he could scale the quality). Very rarely does his sous-chef makes food. Even in the latter case, I have not found the food to be noticeably inferior (I notice the difference, of course).

If his understudy isn't making food, and Yamamoto-san is making everything, I would honestly probably not enjoy the experience as much. How can one possibly give personal attention to more than 10 people or so at a time? How does Yamamoto-san give preference to his omikase orders over his plate orders while maintaining the quality of both? Or is it the kind of crowd who just goes in and orders a plate of toro and meguro because they are afraid to try anything else and/or don't trust the chef to recommend something good?

You, on the other hand, called anyone who sits at a table at Shiro's "idiots" when confronted by the fact that some reviewers found the food there poor

Talk about lack of reading comprehension...

I actually said, that people going to Shiro's expecting to get the best sushi, and who don't sit at the bar are idiots.

Just like you are an idiot if you go to Shiki expecting the best sushi and don't sit at the bar. Why? Because the person in the restaurant who knows the most about the sushi that he currently has is the guy behind the bar cutting it. Not you, and not the waitstaff.

 

[macuser3of5]

Can we skip all this and just go to Panda Garden, or, maybe, Happy Teriyaki XII?

 

[Sartorially Challenged]

SAT score?

I am amused beyond words. Clearly you have a huge chip on your shoulder (and yes, I did go to an Ivy League university -- although my memory of my university days is rather fuzzy -- which probably puts you into an enormous rage, rambling on about "pompous elitist jerk" to borrow your earlier words -- although that was quite mild, compared to "screw your ****** attitude back into whatever socket you pulled it out of"). Well, I am sorry you didn't work hard enough to get into a good university (or any university). But that's no reason to go about spewing vulgary at anyone who disagrees with you, is it?

While you wipe off your spittle of rage, let me simply point out one thing since I have no time to respond to your novel-length response:

I actually said, that people going to Shiro's expecting to get the best sushi, and who don't sit at the bar are idiots.

Your exact, earlier words:

People who sit at tables at sushi restaraunts are idiots.

I will ask you a simple question, which I hope you will answer simply and clearly, without all the obfuscation and vitriolic words of rage and vulgarity.

If you haven't tried what many other people call the best sushi and sashimi restaurant in Seattle (Shiki), how do you know Shiro's is the best in Seattle? Certainly it would be incovenient to try all Japanese restaurants, but surely you need to try all the major ones before you can pronounce which is best if only according to your own standards? (This is where what is known as LOGIC comes in handy).

Look, I wish I had good food at Shiro's. I didn't. And no amount of "Well, food is only good at the bar-side" is going to placate me since I had good food at Shiki at table-side. And apparently enough patrons thought the same or worse to write about the place on Citysearch (whereas all reviews on Shiki were positive).

You may call them idiots, but the weight of evidence is against you. You cannot simply invalidate all of their reviews by fiat as if you were God.

Anyway, since you enjoy writing novels on a forum, apparently, you can have the last words. This will be my last message on the subject. Go ahead and spew the venom.