Seattle Shopping Suggestions?

[Tokyo Slim]

Originally Posted by Sartorially Challenged

No thanks. I don't live in Seattle anymore, and I only eat at places I know are good when I do visit.
Suit yourself. You may be completely delusional, and I'll never take any of your food suggestions with more than a grain of salt, since your taste is so far off anything I'd consider to be credible, but I'm glad you found something you like.

I grew up eating all kinds of food, including copious amounts of sushi and sashimi, in NYC, SoCal, Tokyo and Seoul. I do not think Shiro's is "considered some of the best in the USA" or "so highly regarded in international Sushi circles" (besides, the real test of a fish man isn't Sushi, it's Sashimi).

Shiro knows how to cut (and equally as important, select) fish better than any person I've ever seen. His sashimi or chirashi is no different than his nigiri in this respect. And Shiro's is quite famous on a local, national, and international scale whether you choose to recognize it or not.

I generally don't go to someone who can't (or has not been certified to) do Fugu. Even though a friend of my mother's ran a Fugu restaurant, growing up, I never eat Fugu (if the Japanese royal family is barred from eating it, I am not going to either). But I know what kind of precision and skill it takes to be certified in Fugu preparation (the final test: eat one's own preparation).

This is a pretty absurd statement. There are a lot of people certified to cut fugu that don't have the experience or the skill of someone who's been doing it for 40+ years. Shiro was trained by many of the best sushi chefs in Tokyo in the 50's and 60's and has a proven track record of excellence here in the US since the late 1960's. He owned one of the most successful and highly regarded Japanese Restaurants on the West Coast, before he "retired" to run his little twelve person sushi counter.

I found the food at Shiro middling at best and horribly overpriced to boot.

Again, I ask you, what did you have? Yes, its rather expensive, but it's also widely regarded as AT LEAST the best sushi place in Seattle.

A simple test is this: how many visiting Japanese or Japanese expatriate clients do you see at Shiro's?

Quite a few considering that only 12 people can sit at the bar at a time.

Now go to Shiki and count (btw, the extensive list of daily "specials" at Shiki is only listed in Japanese, by the way).

Is this supposed to impress me? If you want, Shiro will tell you exactly when the fish you are eating was caught, and explain the way to best experience each piece of fish, all without speaking a word of English, if you so desire. Shiro isn't concerned with attracting Japanese tourists, he is concerned with making the best fish.

 

[Sartorially Challenged]

Suit yourself. You may be completely delusional, and I'll never take any of your food suggestions with more than a grain of salt, since your taste is so far off anything I'd consider to be credible

Well, if you want to get personal and childish and call names, I have no interest in exchanging further dialogue. There is no need to be impolite over food opinions.

There are a lot of people certified to cut fugu that don't have the experience or the skill of someone who's been doing it for 40+ years.

You clearly don't know much about how Fugu chefs are trained. There is ONE -- count that -- only ONE person certified to do Fugu in Seattle. That is Chef Yamamoto who owns Shiki. I've frequented the best sushi/sashimi restaurants in NYC, LA, Tokyo and Seoul, and all the top sashimi chefs have also been Fugu-certified. It requires the ultimate skill to cut Fugu and make sure the posionous parts are surgically separated. There is no margin for error. Otherwise people get sick and even die (the failure rate for the final test is pretty high, too, for that matter).

Shiro isn't concerned with attracting Japanese tourists

Shiki does not attract "Japanese tourists." Japanese businessmen staying in Seattle and Japanese expatriate come find Chef Yamamoto. Because they know Sashimi better than the legions of Kenneth Cole-clad Belltown twenty-something posers who appear to be the main clients for Shiro's.

In any case, Seattle gourmands can decide whether someone who recommends Monsoon, Tamarind Tree and Malay Satay Hut OR Red Mill Burger (barf!) and Ezell's chicken (only in the Seattle bubble would such ridiculously sloppy fried chicken -- all supposedly because "Oprah loved it" -- be accepted as fit for human consumption) knows what good food is.

 

[Sartorially Challenged]

BTW, for the somewhat more adventurous, I except King's BBQ from the injunction against all Chinese restaurants in Seattle.

Well, first of all, King's BBQ (International District) is strictly-speaking not a restaurant. It is a traditional Chinese BBQ house. Eric Banh who owns Monsoon and the Baguette Box, who is fanatical about food and left a career in finance to become a restauranteur, swore to me about its duck BBQ.

Not much of a place in terms of decor or anything else but food (it's across the street from Malay Satay Hut in Chinatown), but the price is very low and the duck and pork BBQ, Chinese-style is superb -- comparable to what one might find in NYC Chinatown.

 

[Sartorially Challenged]

Again, I ask you, what did you have?

Forgot to answer this. It's been a while, but I think I tried, at minimum, Toro and Hotate (and probably Maguro sashimi).

Wasn't horribly bad, but just middling (and small too). Not at all reflective of the price.

BTW, I don't object to expensive. I object to needlnessly expensive. I consider it value to pay $500 (which I recently did at a superb restaurant in Anguilla) for a meal if I feel it is worth $1,000. I consider it grievously overpriced even if it costs $5 if I feel it tastes like $2.50.

Also, while there are gazillion Thai joints in Seattle, avoid most. A quick, simple rule of thumb is to avoid places that serve red Pad Thai (aka "American Pad Thai"). Red Pad Thai is made with tomato paste (yuck). Places that serve yellowish Pad Thai is going to be a notch better at minimum (traditional Pad Thai is made with tamarind, not sickly sweet tomato paste).

One last thing. Generally Asian or Fusion restaurants do not do desserts very well. Seattle isn't exactly known for its pastries and desserts in the first place. However, Monsoon has one dessert that is probably without a peer in Seattle -- banana coconut cake. Try it. You will not regret.

 

[rdawson808]

Originally Posted by stickonatree

just go on the ave (university avenue) by the university of washington (15th & pacific) and you'll find all kinds of cheap eats

I still have fond memories of Proud Bird. I'm not sure it's there anymore.

b

 

[Tokyo Slim]

Originally Posted by Sartorially Challenged

Well, if you want to get personal and childish and call names, I have no interest in exchanging further dialogue. There is no need to be impolite over food opinions.
I know you are but what am I?

You clearly don't know much about how Fugu chefs are trained. There is ONE -- count that -- only ONE person certified to do Fugu in Seattle. That is Chef Yamamoto who owns Shiki. I've frequented the best sushi/sashimi restaurants in NYC, LA, Tokyo and Seoul, and all the top sashimi chefs have also been Fugu-certified. It requires the ultimate skill to cut Fugu and make sure the posionous parts are surgically separated. There is no margin for error. Otherwise people get sick and even die (the failure rate for the final test is pretty high, too, for that matter).

I know a lot about fugu actually, and I know that A: it is 90% a gimmick food, whose merits are fairly overrated. Its a bland, delicate fish. But you wouldn't know that either, cause you've never had it. Do you only get into taxi cabs driven by professional race car drivers? and B: Shiro doesn't serve it because it isn't fresh, not because of any lack of talent on his part.

Shiki does not attract "Japanese tourists." Japanese businessmen staying in Seattle and Japanese expatriate come find Chef Yamamoto. Because they know Sashimi better than the legions of Kenneth Cole-clad Belltown twenty-something posers who appear to be the main clients for Shiro's.

You base your assumption on one visit, sling out rhetoric and biased opinion, bring up inaccurate and meaningless statistics about how many "Japanese" people eat where (when I have both first hand experience at both being Japanese, and eating at Shiro's, and from what I can tell, you don't) Who's being childish? I keep assuming you are going to threaten to tell my mom.

In any case, Seattle gourmands can decide whether someone who recommends Monsoon, Tamarind Tree and Malay Satay Hut OR Red Mill Burger (barf!) and Ezell's chicken (only in the Seattle bubble would such ridiculously sloppy fried chicken -- all supposedly because "Oprah loved it" -- be accepted as fit for human consumption) knows what good food is.

I find that being ridiculously snobby dulls one's appetite. Perhaps you have the same problem. OMG, burgers and fried chicken?!?!? How dare I? Isn't that peasant food?

 

[tundrafour]

I like Queen Sheba (Ethiopian) in Capital Hill. Lots of hipster kids if you're bothered by that kind of thing, but the food is good.

Oh, and Señor Moose CafÃ

in Ballard has the best Mexican food I've had in Seattle. I've heard La Carta de Oaxaca (also in Ballard) is good, too, but haven't been personally.

 

[Sartorially Challenged]

Shiro doesn't serve it because it isn't fresh, not because of any lack of talent on his part.

A simple question: is he or is he not certified to do Fugu by the Japanese government?

I have both first hand experience at both being Japanese, and eating at Shiro's, and from what I can tell, you don't.

Well, let's review. I have been to both Shiro's and Shiki (I also lived in Japan and have Japanese in-laws, and have a Japanese friend who runs a Kaiseki restaurant, but let's set that aside for the moment). Thus, I am able to evaluate both Shiro and Shiki. Now, admittedly, my first experience at Shiro's was also my last (but then again, with so many restaurants, I don't give too many second chances).

You, on the other hand, by your own admission, never tried Shiki. Who is in a better position to be able to compare the two?

I tell you what: let's leave aside our own respective views and see what others say:

Shiki: http://seattle.citysearch.com/review/11628022?rpp=9

I note not a single bad review.

One of the reviewers captures it best:

Being a huge sushi fan, we've tried many sushi joints in town (including Shiro's, Nikko, etc.), and Shiki is definitely the best.

Now, Shiro's: http://seattle.citysearch.com/review/10796501?rpp=31

There are some good reviews, but also some rather bad ones.

One of the reviews says it all:

I ordered a broad assortment of nigiri and maki sushi. Table service was fast , so disappointment came quickly. Only the miso soup was good. The quality of the fish, quality of preparation, portion size and presentation were all poor. Nigiri sushi looked dry and the tuna was almost as grey as the albacore. Flavors were wan or nonexistent -- I love subtle tastes, but when the ikura is bland something is deeply wrong. The unagi was chiller-cold. Albacore was tough to chew (poorly sliced?). The rainbow roll was insipid and divided into uneven slices. Presentation was haphazard with dissimilar nigiri pieces crammed against others so that picking one up pulled the seaweed of another apart. We returned the gyoza and the asparagus salad because they tasted bad. I would love to taste Shiro-san's food sometime after reading about him. But whoever prepared my family's meal tonight should feel ashamed.

OMG, burgers and fried chicken?!?!? How dare I? Isn't that peasant food?

You apparently have about the same reading comprehension level as your mental age. That is what is known as a straw man.

I happen to love rough (often garlicky) "peasant food" (love Sicilian-style Aglio e Olio, for example, which is about as plain as it gets in Italian cuisine). And, yes, I love burgers and, especially, fried chicken.

My objection to your recommendations of Red Mill Burger and Ezell's is not based on the type of food they serve, but the quality of the food. Red Mill Burger pitches itself as a "gourmet" burger, but is at best average. Now, I don't expect its beef to taste like the best cut from Iowa (where even average burger joints serve supremely good cuts of corn-fed beef), but it's utterly average and yet over-priced.

As for Ezell's, I've had far better fried chickens at roadside shacks in rural areas of Georgia. Ezell's chicken is sloppy and not crispy at all. I don't care if Oprah ships it over or it's inexpensive. It's just not worth the visit.

BTW, the best chicken I found, of all places, was in Seoul. Korean-style fried chicken is crispy and moist, but not greasy. And it is available in the U.S. (see Cheogajip Chicken).

 

[Tokyo Slim]

I've noticed a distinct trend here, you and I seem to be talking about vastly different restaurants. Up until this point I was sure that it was because of your astronomically superior taste buds, but now I realize that you live in an alternate dimension where Red Mill Burgers pretends to be "gourmet", Shiro can't cut fish, and Ezell's chicken is "sloppy" and "not crisp at all". One look at the Red Mill website (granted, it does bear some similarities to Alex Kabbaz's site, with the "celebrity clients" list and etc. But past that... nothing) and one wonders where you get pretensions of "gourmet" from. A bacon deluxe with cheese, onion rings, and a large coke are right around $10. Ezell's chicken is plenty crispy, and in fact in nearly every online review I read that describes the chicken, it specifically mentions that it's "crisp" perfect, delicious skin. Your alternate dimension sounds like it sucks. It's like some sort of Bizzaro World. Anyways, the OP is probably here in Seattle as we speak, maybe he will try one of our suggestions and let us know what he thinks.

 

[Tokyo Slim]

Originally Posted by Sartorially Challenged

I tell you what: let's leave aside our own respective views and see what others say:

Shiki: http://seattle.citysearch.com/review/11628022?rpp=9

I note not a single bad review.

One of the reviewers captures it best:

Now, Shiro's: http://seattle.citysearch.com/review/10796501?rpp=31

There are some good reviews, but also some rather bad ones.

One of the reviews says it all:

I find it highly interesting that most of the "complaints" come from people sitting at a table. People sitting at tables (unless its really slow or you are personal friends with the sushi chef) don't get fish cut by the lead sushi chef. He is the head sushi chef because he is the most skilled as selecting, cutting, and recommending fish. His domain is the bar, his job can only be done there. When you have eight people within your reach that may have been waiting an hour for your personal attention, you cannot be concerned with making sushi for the people sitting 40 feet away who just walked in the door and ordered a numbered lunch combo. Table service is for plate dinners, not sushi. Table service sushi = trainee. Which at Shiro's has admittedly gone downhill a bit since Taichi (one of Shiro's best understudies) left to open Chiso. Which is also extremely well cut, fresh fish, and one of Seattle's best.

This is not a Shiki vs. Shiro's argument. As previously stated, I have not yet tried Shiki. I'm just defending my personal favorite against your unkind and libellous attacks that their fish is subpar/horrific/disgusting. If you found it to be so, you are definitely the exception and not the rule. One can only assume that you did not sit face to face with Shiro and allow him to do his job, since I'd find it rather hard to believe that he'd recommend toro, meguro sashimi, and hotate right off the bat. Not to be coarse, but that is the kind of stuff beginners order as an entire meal. While there's nothing wrong with tuna (in fact, I love both Meguro and Toro), there are semi-frequent occasions when Shiro does not SELL toro because his ruthless devotion to freshness does not allow him to buy frozen or out of season fish. (though most sushi folk will tell you that freezing tuna does not damage it the way freezing many other fish does and to the best of my knowledge, 99% of Seattle's sushi tuna is frozen and stored). I'm not positive I can tell the difference, but I like that he believes in something and sticks to it. As the pioneer of sushi in Seattle, I doubt you will find any professional sushi chef that will speak ill of him or his fishy ideals.

A simple question: is he or is he not certified to do Fugu by the Japanese government?

Since you have been required to have a fugu license since 1958, Its quite possible that Shiro at one point in time had one. Then again, it may not have been possible, necessary, or even reasonable for him to aquire one as an apprentice. I'll have to ask him sometime. I'm sure that some of the various masters he studied under had licenses, Ginza being sort of the Fugu epicenter of Tokyo. I am equally sure that since he will not ever sell the farmed, inspected, frozen, shipped, and inspected again fugu that is the only version approved by the FDA for sale in the US at his restaurant, so he rightfully sees no reason to renew or flaunt any license that he may or may not have had in the 1960's when he left Japan.

Again, I don't see why a fugu license has to be a prerequisite for a top notch sushi chef. In Tokyo takes a minimum of two years of apprenticeship (though some places the required apprenticeship is a year longer), a written test, a fish identification test, and the preparation test. You are holding this standard up as the paramount height that a sushi chef can attain? Yes, the apprenticeship is rough, but its not any rougher than apprenticeships that other sushi chefs endure, and in extremely rare instances you cut the fish wrong during the prep test, you might die, but that happens so rarely as to be a psychological deterrent more than anything else. On average 240 Fugu certifications are given out in Japan every year. About 33% of the total applicants are certified, and you can apply and re-test every year until you make it.

So basically, a fugu chef can be a three year old greenhorn newb chef who knows how to not kill himself with one specific fish, and what it looks like. That doesn't necessarily make him a superior sushi or sashimi preparer IMO.

 

[Jerry52]

Does anybody know if the Guadalahara chain of Mexican restaurants is still in Seattle and if they're still good? It was a small chain of four or five, one near Pioneer Square, and I was very impressed, but that was thirty years ago.

 

[Tokyo Slim]

Originally Posted by Jerry52

Does anybody know if the Guadalahara chain of Mexican restaurants is still in Seattle and if they're still good? It was a small chain of four or five, one near Pioneer Square, and I was very impressed, but that was thirty years ago.

I don't recall seeing it.

 

[tundrafour]

I'm really going to have to try both Shiro's and Shiki now. I haven't had good sushi for almost two years.

Kanpai in Puyallup is easily better than any Japanese restaurant I've been to in Seattle, though I admittedly haven't been in years. Housed in an what was formerly a convenience store and great sushi and sashismi (perhaps even a fugu license?) as well as regular katei ryouri.

 

[LSeca]

Originally Posted by tundrafour

Kanpai in Puyallup is easily better than any Japanese restaurant I've been to in Seattle, though I admittedly haven't been in years. Housed in an what was formerly a convenience store and great sushi and sashismi (perhaps even a fugu license?) as well as regular katei ryouri.

Wow, this is my favorite Japanese restaurant as well. The place is so small and not very fancy, but the food is excellent and worth the trip.

 

[Souper]

Whoa, severely disoriented.

For a long 30 seconds I was wondering when egullet changed it's color scheme. Something seemed off, thread title tipped me off. I need sleep. Hangover tomorrow.