Japanese Shoes: Bespoke & RTW Super Thread

[DWFII]



Yeah, soon you will 3D print all the leather parts you need to make a shoe

"I couldn't live like that."

Hopefully, I will have "caught the bus" before that becomes commonplace.

 

[bengal-stripe]



Yeah, soon you will 3D print all the leather parts you need to make a shoe

What!?! - 3D print only the leather parts? - You soon will be able to 3D print the entire shoe. You set-up your printer at night time, in the morning you have a new pair of shoes.

All that welting stuff will be redundant!

 

[shoefan]

Two comments regarding the 'tunnel stitch.' First, the apron seam as shown is what, I believe, the old-timers would call the split and lift. The toe seam (and DW's illustration) show what I believe is called a round stitch, or a round-closed seam. In the apron stitch shown, only one side of the stitch features the 'tunnel' element -- the other side of the stitch penetrates the full thickness of the leather (on the vamp/sole-side piece of leather).

I also believe that, traditionally, the round stitch was used on a side seam of riding boots; in addition to its strength, it was done for comfort -- there is no thread penetrating through to the inside of the leather (it was done on the exterior of the boot/leather), so there was no exposed thread to irritate the foot when the side of the foot is rubbing the horse's flank; further, because the seam has a bit of a ridge or mound of leather (see the photo of DW's shoe featuring that seam), the thread doesn't get rubbed by the horse's side (nor by the spur if being used), as the raised ridge of leather absorbs the friction.

It does seem, at first blush, hard to understand how this (a round stitch) seam would be stronger than that made by stitching through the full thickness of the leather, but I guess if done correctly there is more leather in the stitch than in a sewing machine-type stitch (i.e. a stabbed stitch).

 

[DWFII]



Two comments regarding the 'tunnel stitch.' First, the apron seam as shown is what, I believe, the old-timers would call the split and lift. The toe seam (and DW's illustration) show what I believe is called a round stitch, or a round-closed seam. In the apron stitch shown, only one side of the stitch features the 'tunnel' element -- the other side of the stitch penetrates the full thickness of the leather (on the vamp/sole-side piece of leather).

I also believe that, traditionally, the round stitch was used on a side seam of riding boots; in addition to its strength, it was done for comfort -- there is no thread penetrating through to the inside of the leather (it was done on the exterior of the boot/leather), so there was no exposed thread to irritate the foot when the side of the foot is rubbing the horse's flank; further, because the seam has a bit of a ridge or mound of leather (see the photo of DW's shoe featuring that seam), the thread doesn't get rubbed by the horse's side (nor by the spur if being used), as the raised ridge of leather absorbs the friction.

It does seem, at first blush, hard to understand how this (a round stitch) seam would be stronger than that made by stitching through the full thickness of the leather, but I guess if done correctly there is more leather in the stitch than in a sewing machine-type stitch (i.e. a stabbed stitch).

The nomenclature...as well as the instructions of how to do it...came from one of, if not the, foremost shoe historians in the world--D. A. Saguto. We have been colleagues and friends for many years and he has taught me a lot....but I could have misunderstood.

The stitch on the shoe is an old one--a replica of work done in the 18th century (and earlier). It was used on shoes (as with this shoe) as often as...perhaps more often...than on boots where riding was a factor.

I have seen side-seamed boots from across many centuries and more than one or two cultures, and I have never seen a "round stitched" side seam. Not saying they're not out there but...I'm from Missouri.

Esp. in situations where stirrups are used, side seams get a lot of wear--it's one of the first places a side-seamed riding boot will wear through...not because of the seam (which is turned inward and thus ultimately protected) but because of the way the leather of the tops tends to create large pipes at, and above, the ankle (something that doesn't happen so much with closely fitted back-seamed boots). A "round seamed" side seam would wear through quickly.

Side seam boots with the seam turned inward seldom (if ever) rub the foot or leg if fit properly.

In my initial remarks (post #3095), I addressed the issue of the apron being "tunnel stitched" on only one side:

The apron stitch itself is done similarly except that the stitches are visible.The top piece is done as a tunnel stitch but the sides are penetrated perpendicular to the substance of the leather.

And, BTW just to set the record straight, you're right about the names of the types of stitches.

--

 

[DWFII]

For anyone interested in this technique there is a good..and unimpeachable...essay on the subject here (I would quote it but it is long and contains at least one photo).

 

[shoefan]



For anyone interested in this technique there is a good..and unimpeachable...essay on the subject here (I would quote it but it is long and contains at least one photo).

I was just reviewing that post myself! To any/all interested, the linked post is very interesting. (Perhaps this conversation belongs in the shoemaking thread, as opposed to this Japanese shoes thread.)

 

[DWFII]



I was just reviewing that post myself! To any/all interested, the linked post is very interesting. (Perhaps this conversation belongs in the shoemaking thread, as opposed to this Japanese shoes thread.)

I agree.

Look there.

--

 

[BespokeMakers]

Koji Suzuki at Work
Hand Stitching

Photographed by Daniel Katz​

http://www.silverchroma.com/

 

[BespokeMakers]

SPIGOLA for Coccinella
Bespoke Salon in Osaka Japan
https://www.facebook.com/coccinella.jp

More Pics +2

 

[BespokeMakers]

SPIGOLA for Coccinella
Bespoke Salon in Osaka Japan
https://www.facebook.com/coccinella.jp

More Pic +1

 

[ThinkDerm]



More Pics +2

the heel counter is too small

 

[jerrybrowne]



the heel counter is too small

+1 although it is a nice boot. Would also prefer it without the strap at the instep....

 

[Odd I/O]



I don't know why it wouldn't be possible...if the suede in question were[COLOR=FF00AA] reverse calf[/COLOR].

Unfortunately most suede is splits. Without the grain surface the leather just doesn't have enough structural integrity to support skin stitching or the "tunnel stitch" needed for the apron itself.

Remember that a split is that portion of the substance of a hide that is left after the top grain has been removed and sold as prime leather. What's left is far more loose fibered than the top grain. Additionally, splits are often cow rather than calf. Cow being older and inherently looser than calf.

That said, with enough care and a good piece of split leather, it probably could be done. The strength and reliability of the stitching might never be certain, however. And yes, the nap will obscure the stitching somewhat but not so much it will be invisible.

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Reverse calf, is that just ordinary shoe leather but with the flesh/nappy side out? What's the advantage/dis-advantage of this type of suede versus the regular split stuff? What's the nap like?

 

[DWFII]



Reverse calf, is that just ordinary shoe leather but with the flesh/nappy side out? What's the advantage/dis-advantage of this type of suede versus the regular split stuff? What's the nap like?

Pretty much yes. But of course ideally it's still a prime shoe leather as opposed to "ordinary."

Reverse calf the top grain turned fleshside out.

Splits are a layer below the top grain. A split is what's left (if they choose to process it) after the top grain has been sold. So, in a sense a split is always a "'second." A split has no grain surface and the fiber mat is coarser that the top grain.

Personally I think that good calf turned flesh-side out is a finer, better looking, and better quality than a split suede. The only caveat...at least for me...is that the leather be "struck through." Meaning that the dye penetrates uniformly from the grain to the flesh. Not many high end leathers are done like that.

Here are a pair of boots made from reverse "French Calf."

 

[striker]

Is reverse calf also called nubuck?