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nutcracker

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~~~ Happy New Year folks! !!! ~~~

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wurger

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back from a brief trip to Japan, while their english shoes are overpriced at expected, picked up a pair of Shetland Fox in a Regal shoe store; since it's next Strasburgo shop I went to visit for EG.

For 1/3 the price, gold museum calf on a more G&G style last which I prefer, happy outcome for a last minute shopping. I wore it for the rest of the shopping day and a long flight back to Sydney from Osaka.

I quite like the handsewn apron details, but I want to ask: how does one tell the difference between a handsewn, and a pair that is not??

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Stefan88

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I quite like the handsewn apron details, but I want to ask: how does one tell the difference between a handsewn, and a pair that is not??

If you're talking about the apron, I'd say that's just the esthetics? Is it Goodyear welted?
 

DWFII

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I quite like the handsewn apron details, but I want to ask: how does one tell the difference between a handsewn, and a pair that is not??

1000


The most obvious tell is that the toes is "skin stitched"--the thread enters the leather on the flesh surface, penetrates a little more than halfway through the substance of the leather, emerges on the very edge and enters the connecting piece at the very edge emerging on the surface of the fleshside of the leather. It's essentially a tunnel stitch and the thread never shows on the grain side. The point is that this cannot be done by machine.

The apron stitch itself is done similarly except that the stitches are visible.The top piece is done as a tunnel stitch but the sides are penetrated perpendicular to the substance of the leather. Again, this kind of stitch cannot be done by machine.

In both cases, the stitching has a very distinctive appearance once you know what you're looking at.

Sorry if the explanation is clumsy...that's the best I got this morning.
 

dieworkwear

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The most obvious tell is that the toes is "skin stitched"--the thread enters the leather on the flesh surface, penetrates a little more than halfway through the substance of the leather, emerges on the very edge and enters the connecting piece at the very edge emerging on the surface of the fleshside of the leather. It's essentially a tunnel stitch and the thread never shows on the grain side. The point is that this cannot be done by machine.

The apron stitch itself is done similarly except that the stitches are visible.The top piece is done as a tunnel stitch but the sides are penetrated perpendicular to the substance of the leather. Again, this kind of stitch cannot be done by machine.

In both cases, the stitching has a very distinctive appearance once you know what you're looking at.

Sorry if the explanation is clumsy...that's the best I got this morning.


Probably a stupid question, DWFII, but do you know why it doesn't seem possible to get this same effect on suede? Calf ones have a really pretty pie-crust apron, but on suede, it's pretty much just a typical ridge.

Is it just because the nap hides all the detail?
 
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DWFII

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Probably a stupid question, DWFII, but do you know why it doesn't seem possible to get this same effect on suede? Calf ones have a really pretty pie-crust apron, but on suede, it's pretty much just a typical ridge.

Is it just because the nap hides all the detail?


I don't know why it wouldn't be possible...if the suede in question were reverse calf.

Unfortunately most suede is splits. Without the grain surface the leather just doesn't have enough structural integrity to support skin stitching or the "tunnel stitch" needed for the apron itself.

Remember that a split is that portion of the substance of a hide that is left after the top grain has been removed and sold as prime leather. What's left is far more loose fibered than the top grain. Additionally, splits are often cow rather than calf. Cow being older and inherently looser than calf.

That said, with enough care and a good piece of split leather, it probably could be done. The strength and reliability of the stitching might never be certain, however. And yes, the nap will obscure the stitching somewhat but not so much it will be invisible.

--
 
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j ingevaldsson

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The most obvious tell is that the toes is "skin stitched"--the thread enters the leather on the flesh surface, penetrates a little more than halfway through the substance of the leather, emerges on the very edge and enters the connecting piece at the very edge emerging on the surface of the fleshside of the leather. It's essentially a tunnel stitch and the thread never shows on the grain side. The point is that this cannot be done by machine.

The apron stitch itself is done similarly except that the stitches are visible.The top piece is done as a tunnel stitch but the sides are penetrated perpendicular to the substance of the leather. Again, this kind of stitch cannot be done by machine.

In both cases, the stitching has a very distinctive appearance once you know what you're looking at.

Sorry if the explanation is clumsy...that's the best I got this morning.


Actually there is machines that can do skin stitches. They are mainly used in Italy to make the quite popular decoration stitches on the inside of the leather a lot of brands do there. It' s mainly done by hand of course but some use machine, I believe Santoni for example does for some of their shoes with this type of decorative stitching. Depending on leather thickness you adjust the machine so it sews in the flesh correctly. Won't look as delicate as handmade though. I assume you can use it for stitching a toe too.
 
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DWFII

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Actually there is machines that can do skin stitches. They are mainly used in Italy to make the quite popular decoration stitches on the inside of the leather a lot of brands do there. It' s mainly done by hand of course but some use machine, I believe Santoni for example does for some of their shoes with this type of decorative stitching. Depending on leather thickness you adjust the machine so it sews in the flesh correctly. Won't look as delicate as handmade though. I assume you can use it for stitching a toe too.


I didn't know that...will wonders never cease?
 

wurger

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The most obvious tell is that the toes is "skin stitched"--the thread enters the leather on the flesh surface, penetrates a little more than halfway through the substance of the leather, emerges on the very edge and enters the connecting piece at the very edge emerging on the surface of the fleshside of the leather. It's essentially a tunnel stitch and the thread never shows on the grain side. The point is that this cannot be done by machine.

The apron stitch itself is done similarly except that the stitches are visible.The top piece is done as a tunnel stitch but the sides are penetrated perpendicular to the substance of the leather. Again, this kind of stitch cannot be done by machine.

In both cases, the stitching has a very distinctive appearance once you know what you're looking at.

Sorry if the explanation is clumsy...that's the best I got this morning.


thank you for your explanation, can you elaborate on tunnel stitching?
 

DWFII

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thank you for your explanation, can you elaborate on tunnel stitching?



More or less like this (side view with the thread following the white "tunnel"):

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I generally do this with a very tiny curved sewing awl (IIRC they were called cricket awls) and a bristled 3 cord linen (or dacron) thread waxed with a neutral hand wax or beeswax.

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I've done it from both sides--from the fleshside so that the thread is not exposed (as in the toe of the shoe you posted) and from the grainside so that it is (as in the following photo) .

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The oldtimers call this "split and lift" and it was done on a curved block that was held to the knee with a stirrup.

--
 
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DWFII

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wow, the threads go in between the leather! didn't know that, and that explains the bulging in the leather around the apron.

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Yes, and on the toe too.

And if the leather is good enough quality and thick enough relative to the thread and the hole...and all other things being equal...skin stitching, or split and lift, is the strongest method of joining two pieces of leather known.

[Parenthetically, hand welted inseams are very similar and with some types of hand welted inseams, identical. IOW, the diagram above represents the path of the thread for inseaming as well. Did I mention "strongest method of joining two pieces of leather"?]
 
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