HOW TO DETERMINE THE MANUFACTURER OF A Brooks Brothers SHOE?

[mg428]

After delving into who manufacturers the Brooks Brothers shoes, the subject turned out to be quite convoluted.

Apparently there are more than one manufacturer, which are, as far as I have seen, Alden, Alfred Sargent ("AS") and Crockett & Jones ("C&J").

After reading quite a lot posts under miscellaneous threads at style forum and ask andy, I thought that it would be very beneficial to gather all necessary information regarding this subject under one thread so that someone who does not know anything about this subject would obtain the necessary information he needs after locating this thread by simply googling.

Although I am opening this thread with the above purpose, I in fact require a great deal of information about this subject. In this respect, per the posts I have read thus far, I have some determinations and some further questions that I will list below one by one. Please comment and contribute to each of them, one by one, to provide consistency. Thanks!

1) As far as I have seen, 3 companies, namely Alden, Alfred Sargent ("AS") and Crockett & Jones ("C&J"), manufacture for BB. Are there any more that I do not know?

2) Do these companies still manufacture for BB?

3) You may know that there is a categorization of men's shoes on BB's website (which divides shoes into 5 to 6 groups) 2 of these groups, "casual shoes" and "formal and luxury", include shoes Made in Italy and Made in Portugal. Some shoes are only mentioned to be "Imported". Do you know the manufacturers of these shoes?

4) Considering AS and C&J are made in England whereas Alden is made in the U.S.A, I assume the best criterion to understand which BB shoe is manufactured by which company is to check where the shoe is made. If it is made in the U.S.A., then it is made by Alden. Right?

5) This obviously brings the question in mind as to how we are going to understand which "Made in England" shoe is manufactured by AS or C&J. This would be the first question that would come to your mind after question no. 3.

However, before asking how to understand which Made in England shoe is made by whom question, I will ask a further question related with question no. 3 and ask the former question afterwards.

My question is about a similar respect of Alden shoes and AS shoes. I have found out that 3 of the Made in the U.S.A. shoes of BB has also this so-called Goodyear welt construction. As far as I know, this type of welt construction is used only by AS, which is clearly stated in their website. So there is a contradiction here. If a BB shoe is made in the U.S.A it must not be AS but these shoe are made with AS's trademarked Goodyear welt. How come? Is this simply a mistake in the description of the shoes on BB's website? Anyhow, the links are below, and your comments are more than welcome.

http://www.brooksbrothers.com/IWCatP...lt_color=Black

http://www.brooksbrothers.com/IWCatP...lt_color=Black

http://www.brooksbrothers.com/IWCatP...lt_color=Black



5) Back to my other question, how are we going to discern which Made in England shoe is manufactured by AS or C&J? Considering question no. 4, if you reply to that question that BB made a mistake for those 3 shoes when describing them on BB website, then would you say that the use of Goodyear welt is the ultimate criterion that differentiates AS shoes from C&J, and from others, for that matter? If you say that Goodyear welt is not the ultimate criterion, than how are we going to know which Made in England shoe is from AS and which is from C&J?

According to the posts I read on the Internet, another thing I know regarding this question is that most Made in England shoes of BB are from AS, not from C&J. Is that correct? (In fact if the use of Goodyear welt is the ultimate criterion in differentiating AS shoes from C&J, then this statement is true because most Made in England shoes on BB's website have this Goodyear welt)

6) This question is about the "Peal & Co." label. Could you please give a piece of information as to the history of this label and the relation with the above companies?

Remember the categorization of men's shoes on BB's website (which divides shoes into 5 to 6 groups, one of which is Peal & Co. collection) When you examine the Peal & Co. collection, at first glance you think that the Made in England shoes fall into this category. This statement is mostly, but not completely true. Because;

a)\tThere is one shoe in this collection that is Made in the U.S.A. which is the shoe in the third link I gave above.

b)\tThere are also 4 more Made in England shoes that are given under different categories on BB's website. 2 under the "casual shoes" category, the links of which are:

http://www.brooksbrothers.com/IWCatP...lt_color=Black

http://www.brooksbrothers.com/IWCatP...ault_color=Tan

And 2 under "formal & luxury" category, the links of which are:

http://www.brooksbrothers.com/IWCatP...lt_color=Black

http://www.brooksbrothers.com/IWCatP...&Parent_Id=522

Although these 4 shoes are not listed under the Peal & Co. collection, I know that the 3rd shoe (the first formal shoe) comes with a Peal & Co. label and box et cetera. I do not know whether the other three bear the Peal & Co. label. (BTW, the 2 type of slippers on BB's website listed under the "slippers" category are also Made in England. And when you zoom in to their images you would clearly see that they bear the Peal & Co. label)

IMHO, it is very natural that BB categorized formal shoes under a different category regardless of whether they bear the Peal & Co. label. Also it seems that BB found the other 2 shoes distinctively casual and found it necessary to list those shoes under the "casual shoes" category and not under the "Peal & Co. collection" category, regardless of whether they bear the Peal & Co. label.

I ASSUME those 3 shoes bear the Peal & Co. label but were not listed under the Peal & Co. category due to their distinctive formal and casual natures. Would you agree? And how would you explain that Made in the U.S.A. shoe fall into the Peal & Co. category? Can it be a mistake?

Your comments are welcome.

7) \tSo far all questions I asked were about how to find which company manufactures which shoe for BB.

This last question is about their quality. In this respect, I will ask 4 questions. The first 2 are related with the competing companies' quality. The third is related with the shoes manufactured by the same company. And the fourth is related with the quality of the non-Made in England & U.S.A. shoes.

a)\tHow would you compare the shoes manufactured and sold directly by Alden, C&J and AS? In other words, which brand is better for you? (What would you say for Alden vs. C&J v. AS?)

b)\tWould your sequence change for the shoes manufactured by these companies for BB in general? For instance if you have replied to the above question as 1) Alden 2) C&J 3) AS, would you change your sequence for the shoes manufactured by these companies for BB? For instance would you say 1) BB made by C&J 2) BB made by AS 3) BB made by Alden?

b)\tHow would you compare a shoe manufactured directly by Alden, C&J and AS with a shoe made by them for BB? In other words, what would you say about, for instance an Alden shoe vs. BB shoe made by Alden? (Apart from general comments, your comments regarding an exact same shoe both available by the manufacturer and by BB would be preferable)


c)\t What would you say about the quality of the shoes Made in Italy and Made in Portugal? BTW, the shoe I tried in a BB store that is, as far as I remember, Made in Portugal was the most uncomfortable shoe I have ever tried. The link is below:

http://www.brooksbrothers.com/IWCatP...lor=Dark-brown

Thank you in advance for your contributions. Please try to reply one by one for consistency.

mg428

 

[kwilkinson]

nvmd.

 

[grimslade]

This post is way too long and your thinking is confused. Most Aldens, other than some loafers and tux shoes, are Goodyear welted. AFAIK, all Made in the USA BB shoes are Aldens. Most AS and C&J are goodyear welted, too.

I don't have the energy to read the rest of this, but based on what I did read, you need to start again from square one.

 

[datasupa]

First priority--learn how to communicate effectively.

Then worry about shoes.

 

[grimslade]

I just noticed that that was your first post. Sorry if we're being harsh. Thanks for trying to sort something out and lay it out in public for others' benefit. Your heart's in the right place, but you're making it more complicated than it needs to be.

Made in the USA = Alden

Made in England = Could be AS or C&J, although C&J may be being phased out. C&Js have a single row of nails on the heel. AS have a double row. Such, at least, is the conventional wisdom.

Made in Itay = Who knows? It's a very fractured market with a lot of smallish private-label specialists. Odds are, if we knew who it was, we still wouldn't know anything important. Same with Portugal.

 

[NoVaguy]

wow.... long first post.

Here's what you need to know:

1) Yes, there are some italian manufactured shoes. and others, i'm sure.
2) Yes, Alden, C&J, and AS all still appear to manufacture for BB
3) It's not entirely clear, but it appears some are manufactured by Martegani, and I think that the sub-200 penny loafers are manufactured by Sebago's Dominican Republic facility.
4) Made in the USA typically means Made by Alden.
5) Made in England, 1 row of nails on the heel is usually C&J; Made in England, 2 rows of nails on the heel is usually AS.
5-a) The goodyear welted thing is typically a matter of semantics, involving arguments over carving feathers and gluing feathers and skiving and such. I find these arguments pointless - all 3 makes have a welt that permits easy repair of the sole and that is the key characteristic that matters. AS does not have a monopoly on goodyear welted shoes - unless it a specific type - this is a matter of advertising puffery.
6) Peal - you can search the forum on it, but all it is today is a trade name owned by Brooks Brothers and used to mark the english shoes that Brooks Brothers imports.
6a) There's a mistake on the website, I imagine. It happens.
6b) English suede does not necessarily equal English made. The leather might be from a tannery in England, and the manufacturing somewhere else. As for the formal shoes, who knows.
7a-c) Quality and comfort is very subjective. I'm sure you can find partisans for all of these.

 

[NoVaguy]

Originally Posted by grimslade

Made in Itay = Who knows? It's a very fractured market with a lot of smallish private-label specialists. Odds are, if we knew who it was, we still wouldn't know anything important. Same with Portugal.

pretty much - i think many of these italian and portugese factories will manufacture whatever you want to whatever specification you want. If the purchaser wants a cardboard and glued reject, they'll make that, too.

 

[mg428]

Thank you for your understanding. I got my lesson obviously.

 

[mg428]

Thanks for your reply. In respect of your knowledge what would you say about the manufacturer of the following shoe? http://www.brooksbrothers.com/IWCatP...Natural-cognac Thanks.

 

[Tarmac]

I think I saw those in San Jose BB and they were AS. Not sure though

As far as current offerings, just look at the nails and the writing on the inside, CJ will be 1 row and say something like "240", AS are 2 rows and say something else.

Your methodology OF capitalization is TOP NOTCH, by the WAY

 

[JLibourel]

As for the history of the "Peal & Co." label, the story, as best I understand and remember it is this: Peal & Co. were highly respected London bespoke cordwainers. That is to say, they never manufactured shoes but handmade them individually for their customers. In 1953, Brooks Brothers acquired from them the right to market English-manufactured shoes under the Peal name. In the early or mid-1960s, the original Peal & Co. folded and Brooks Brothers bought all rights to the name. Originally, from the 1950s into the 1970s (or maybe later) Edward Green was the vendor for the Brooks-Peal shoes. Later, Brooks replaced Edward Green with Crockett & Jones as the vendor, and in more recent years Alfred Sargent has become the primary vendor, with C&J still producing some items. I have never been able to discern any noticeable difference in quality between the C&J-made and the AS-made Peals by examining them in the stores.

Some Brooks salesmen will tell you that the shoes are made at "our Peal & Co. factory in England." If so, he's either ignorant or BS-ing you!

 

[PhiloVance]

I find the easiest way to tell a c&J peal shoe is to match the last number inside the shoe to the last numbers in c&j's catalogue. In every pair of C&J Peal shoes that I own, there is a corresponding c&J last number inside the shoe (i.e. 317, 318, 324).

 

[518aata]

To add to the mix, in the late '80s into the '90s, some of the "Brooks English" shoes were made by Church's. Brooks' patent leather and calf pumps were also made by Church's. The Brooks English shoes were similar in quality to Church's "Custom Grade".

 

[seamus59]

Originally Posted by 518aata

To add to the mix, in the late '80s into the '90s, some of the "Brooks English" shoes were made by Church's. Brooks' patent leather and calf pumps were also made by Church's. The Brooks English shoes were similar in quality to Church's "Custom Grade".
----an interesting sidebar --- the lasts that were owned by Peal and then Brooks upon its acquisition of Peal are still with EG. The current use of the Peal label is a marketing ploy by Brooks to maintain a certain price point.

 

[Jay Gatsby]

Who makes the BB 'Moon Boots'?