Gun suggestions

[JustinW]

Originally Posted by milosz

The KTW round used a brass core rather than deformable lead. Teflon as an external coating has never been proven to increase effective penetration.

As far as I recall, the theory was that a subsonic teflon-coated round would somehow penetrate the weave of a kevlar vest better than s standard FMJ or HP. Sounds silly now, but some really believed this for a while - rather than the fact that it's a brass core that adds to it's penetrative value.

Just a novelty item for me - I got a box with one of my pistols, years ago.

 

[Huntsman]

Originally Posted by Arethusa

Can you cite that? That doesn't agree with absolutely anything I've ever read about terminal ballistics or body armor, and the only situation in which I can imagine teflon aiding penetration is possibly a subsonic spitzer bullet against soft armor.
Well, sort of. I am... involved with some aspects of ammunition and know a gentleman who was associated with the KTW venture. That piece of information was from him. I'd note that I was talking about hard targets, not Spectra or Kevlar soft armor materials. I know there are a few articles extant on KTW that have value, instead of the drivel on the Web (I have some issues with the Wiki article, too). There was one in Gun World magazine in the '70s, and another from the NRA (probably in the Rifleman). Honestly I've lost my magazine indexes (yeah, I know) and can't cite.

Originally Posted by milosz

The KTW round used a brass core rather than deformable lead. Teflon as an external coating has never been proven to increase effective penetration.
No, the KTW team did prove that the Teflon aided bullet passage. And most of the KTWs that I am aware of were steel or that specialized Kenna-something tungsten material. ~ H EDIT: The Web may be useful after all: http://www.guncite.com/ktwint.html Note that Dr. Kopsch indicates Teflon's ability to aid penetration of glass and steel, but not of soft armor, which was my understanding.

 

[mikejones]

I have only spent a few hours in training, but the Sig 226 9 mm was relatively easy to handle and I was able to place most shots within my targets after a short while.

I was trained on it along with a .38 special revolver, but found that gun a bit tough to handle.

The Sig is a great gun, and was chosen by the Navy Seals and other spec ops groups for a reason, its really a great gun.

Maybe you can go to a local gun range with an instructor who has a bag of guns you can try/rent for shooting?

 

[Arethusa]

Originally Posted by Huntsman

Well, sort of. I am... involved with some aspects of ammunition and know a gentleman who was associated with the KTW venture. That piece of information was from him. I'd note that I was talking about hard targets, not Spectra or Kevlar soft armor materials. I know there are a few articles extant on KTW that have value, instead of the drivel on the Web (I have some issues with the Wiki article, too). There was one in Gun World magazine in the '70s, and another from the NRA (probably in the Rifleman). Honestly I've lost my magazine indexes (yeah, I know) and can't cite. No, the KTW team did prove that the Teflon aided bullet passage. And most of the KTWs that I am aware of were steel or that specialized Kenna-something tungsten material. ~ H EDIT: The Web may be useful after all: http://www.guncite.com/ktwint.html Note that Dr. Kopsch indicates Teflon's ability to aid penetration of glass and steel, but not of soft armor, which was my understanding.
Huh, interesting. Thanks. That does make more sense. (Sorry if I came off as unduly belligerent there; habit born of too many myths surrounding this one.)

 

[Huntsman]

Originally Posted by Arethusa

Huh, interesting. Thanks. That does make more sense. (Sorry if I came off as unduly belligerent there; habit born of too many myths surrounding this one.)
No probs. I have to restrain myself from undue belligerence in most of the SF gun threads, so I hear you. (Oh, and I didn't think you did at all) ~ H

 

[ms244]

Originally Posted by Huntsman

No, neither the Black Talon nor the SXT is the so-called 'Cop Killer' bullet so famously mis characterized by almost all of the public. The bullet you refer to is called the KTW -- the initials are for the inventers, one of whom is a police officer. The bullet was invented to gain greater penetration for the (at the time) standard .38 Special rounds the police were carrying. That increased penetration was targeted towards hard resistance -- especially car doors and such. The performance increase due to the coating and the extra hard bullet material (Kennametal, IIRC) yielded siginifcant penetration increases. The bullet was designed for and sold exclusively to the police market, though some of course got out. I don't think anyone on the side of the law was ever killed/injured with one, but I could be wrong. They are quite rare. They are also green in color.




No, all of that is completely wrong. The coating absolutely contributed to increased penetration on hard targets, that's what it was designed to do. While it is true that most of the KTW rounds were made with an extra-hard core, and that the coating did protect the rifling from erosion, many of the KTW bullets were made with standard cores and the coating simply because that was a highly effective combination on its own. On soft body armour I don't think it mattered much as the mechanism by which Teflon eased passage of the core cannot operate.

~ Huntsman



Kennametal is a manufacturer of cutting tools, so quite possibly you are thinking of carbide (specifically tungsten carbide) which is very hard and heavy.

Whenever I hear this whole "teflon coated!!" nonsense I want to ask the person screaming that if they could identify some teflon if it was presented in front of them or define what is teflon exactly?

Here is an interesting article from the old rec.guns archive.
http://www.recguns.com/Sources/VG2.html

With pictures!

 

[milosz]

While I'm sure Kopsch's research convinced him of the effectiveness of the coating, no other testing seems to confirm this (including govt. tests that explicitly said that teflon was irrelevant).

KTW rounds were made with steel, but primarily with brass (and before either, a more exotic hard metal). This, in and of itself, is a simple explanation for the penetrative capabilities of the round - lead is soft (relatively speaking), brass and steel are not. The FBI load being used by most police in their .38s back then consisted of un-jacketed lead, which was less than ideal for penetrating hard surfaces (or body armour).

Teflon essentially performed the same function as copper jacketing over every other steel-core ammo known to man - it protected the bore (extremely well, actually).

 

[Huntsman]

Originally Posted by ms244

Kennametal is a manufacturer of cutting tools, so quite possibly you are thinking of carbide (specifically tungsten carbide) which is very hard and heavy. Whenever I hear this whole "teflon coated!!" nonsense I want to ask the person screaming that if they could identify some teflon if it was presented in front of them or define what is teflon exactly? Here is an interesting article from the old rec.guns archive. http://www.recguns.com/Sources/VG2.html With pictures!
Thanks -- Kennametal manufactured the alloy KTW used, which apparently is a 90-8-2 (roughly) sintered alloy of tungsten, nickel and copper. I was conflagrating the name.

Originally Posted by milosz

While I'm sure Kopsch's research convinced him of the effectiveness of the coating, no other testing seems to confirm this (including govt. tests that explicitly said that teflon was irrelevant). KTW rounds were made with steel, but primarily with brass (and before either, a more exotic hard metal). This, in and of itself, is a simple explanation for the penetrative capabilities of the round - lead is soft (relatively speaking), brass and steel are not. The FBI load being used by most police in their .38s back then consisted of un-jacketed lead, which was less than ideal for penetrating hard surfaces (or body armour). Teflon essentially performed the same function as copper jacketing over every other steel-core ammo known to man - it protected the bore (extremely well, actually).
This is reasonable to me. But I would really be surprised that the design progression didn't involve testing uncoated bullets alongside the PTFE coated bullets. While marketing always plays a role, most don't put extra cost into a product if it can be avoided, and teflon (especially then) wasn't cheap. I'm sure another polymer could have been chosen. I am always surprised at the use of brass, which on the surface, would not really seem all that effective; I probably misunderstand the mechanism. ~ Huntsman