Gun Appreciation Thread

[Streettrash]

Autoloader is king for waterfowl and dove. Yeah there are some great pump shotgun shooters with natural talent that can outshoot lots of people no matter what and every firearm I own can probably shoot better than I can. Cumbersome, yes. Try laying prone and firing or firing from cover while playing that trombone. Try the same thing with an autoloader. Sure a pump is comparable to heft with a double but an auto is much lighter unless you are talking about something ancient like an Auto 5 or an 1100. Second shots at waterfowl with a pump? Skybusting is what that's called because by the time you get that second shell chambered those birds are well out of the effective range of non lead shot 90% of the time. Pumps guns are used by a lot of people due to the fact they are cheap. Just like the .22 is one of the most often used calibers for shooting victims. Economics.

 

[JLibourel]

^How much experience have you had shooting pump-action shotguns? Little to none, from the sound of it. Cycling the slide of a slide-action shotgun involves about 4 inches of hand and arm travel--little more than a flick of the wrist. I have heard knowledgeable people claim that some of the older pump-action shotguns without a trigger disconnect like the Winchester Model 12 can actually be fired faster than an autoloader by holding backing the trigger and cycling the slide as fast as possible. Having seen this done, I can well believe it. I am not sure how useful this is under most circumstances, but it can be done.

I just tried cycling several pump guns from prone--no big deal, and that's from a crapped-out old man in his mid-70s! I shouldn't think there are many hunting situations where one would be shooting a shotgun from prone anyway.

Anybody who is even minimally competent with a pump gun cycles the slide as he recovers from recoil. With the heavier recoil of waterfowl loads, this should be even more the case. However, I will concede that modern, gas-operated autoloaders do minimize felt recoil, so if there is an advantage in follow-up shot speed, it is more likely from earlier recovery from recoil than cycling time.

I just visited the sites of a number of manufacturers of autoloading shotguns. Most of their 12-gauge autoloading field guns ran about 7 pounds, like other field guns. Mechanically there isn't much difference between a pump and an autoloader. One uses hand and arm action to cycle the action, the other powder gas (in modern types). There is no reason why a pump gun could not be made as light as an autoloader or vice-versa.

If you like autoloaders, fine! I've got nothing against them--I have both. I might mention that I did take the defensive shotgun course at Front Sight Training Center some years back and emerged a "Distinguished Graduate" (or some title like that). I was using pump guns and felt I was under no handicap compared to the guys with autoloaders.

 

[Streettrash]

I've hunted with pumps for many years, 870 wingmaster mostly. I still have one. If you like pumps than be all means use them. I totally disagree regarding your statement

"Cycling the slide of a slide-action shotgun involves about 4 inches of hand and arm travel--little more than a flick of the wrist. I have heard knowledgeable people claim that some of the older pump-action shotguns without a trigger disconnect like the Winchester Model 12 can actually be fired faster than an autoloader by holding backing the trigger and cycling the slide as fast as possible."

Yeah maybe you can fire shots almost as quickly but as accurately? Doubtful. I can fan a single action revolver pretty fast too, try hitting something that's not three feet away. Autoloaders and pumps are not the same mechanically at all and the mechanics of shooting them are night and day different. Enjoy your pump gun trombone, I'll not comment further. To each his own but don't try to convince me that it's the same.

 

[brokencycle]

Street trash has no idea what he is talking about. First, everything JL just said about shotguns is true, and he's certainly very knowledgeable on the subject. Second, 22LR is not the preferred weapon by criminals. Every study I have seen since 1985 has pointed to the .38 or .357 being the most commonly used. 9MM and .380 are also very common.

My guess that people using 22LR for crimes is for one of two things:
1. Ease of concealment (as they tend to be small and light)
2. For the noise/reduction of over penetration.

 

[Streettrash]

JL has a "distinguished shooter ribbon" from a weekend warrior shooting course so he must be an expert. Perhaps those of us that have been under hostile fire and had to return such under a variety of circumstances "have no idea of what we are talking about". I stand corrected.

 

[brokencycle]

JL has a "distinguished shooter ribbon" from a weekend warrior shooting course so he must be an expert. Perhaps those of us that have been under hostile fire and had to return such under a variety of circumstances "have no idea of what we are talking about". I stand corrected.

JL has spent a lifetime in the firearm industry... Get educated before commenting on something.

 

[VaderDave]

This has been very interesting and sort of cringeworthy.

 

[JLibourel]

Well, I won't say anything more about this controversy myself, so I'll just give a few quotes from Elmer Keith, the longtime "Dean of American Gunwriters." I am proud to have been able to have counted him as a personal friend. These are from his book Shotguns by Keith:

"...we have seen good pump gun men have three birds falling at about the same time." (p. 61)

"[The pump gun] will shoot as well as any gun, last as long as any other gun, and can be fired accurately just as fast as any automatic. Some may take exception to this statement, but it is true nevertheless.

"For accurately aimed, or pointed, fire, the pump gun will deliver its loads just as fast as will any auto-loader." (p. 69)

"They [autoloaders] are a bit more expensive than a good pump gun as a rule and no faster, if as fast, on game when in the hands of an experienced shooter." (p. 71)

Few if any men have ever had more general gun knowledge than Elmer. In addition to a long lifetime of game shooting experience, during World War II he worked for several years at Ogden Arsenal, in course of which he inspected, test-fired and adjusted great numbers of both pump and autoloading shotguns, so he certainly had ample experience on which to base his opinions.

I will add as a postscript that "Streettrash" (unfortunate user name, that) claims some sort of combat experience to reinforce his credibility. If so, could he please explain why the primary combat shotguns of the U.S. armed forces have for several decades been variants of the Mossberg 590A1, a pump action, if pumps are so much slower and more cumbersome than autoloaders? While I realize that shotguns have lost considerable ground to semi-automatic or select-fire carbines as police longarms in recent years, the slide-action shotgun, most commonly the Remington 870 in the past 60 years or so, has been the preferred shotgun of American law enforcement and many foreign agencies as well. Let us bear in mind that good autoloading shotguns have been on the market since 1905.

 

[lawyerdad]



JL has a "distinguished shooter ribbon" from a weekend warrior shooting course so he must be an expert. Perhaps those of us that have been under hostile fire and had to return such under a variety of circumstances "have no idea of what we are talking about". I stand corrected.

The ducks were shooting back?

 

[DerekS]



JL has a "distinguished shooter ribbon" from a weekend warrior shooting course so he must be an expert. Perhaps those of us that have been under hostile fire and had to return such under a variety of circumstances "have no idea of what we are talking about". I stand corrected.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA. buddy, you should probably stop.

 

[Krish the Fish]

Must have been a gun themed birthday, because along with me buying myself a Glock 43 for it, my girlfriend let me pick out whatever Beretta I wanted and we're going to a local shotgun course to do their sporting clays course. I ended up with a 30" 12ga 686 Silver Pigeon I with vented barrels (not really sure how to describe it, but there is venting between the two barrels. They had another SP model that didn't have the venting but this one seemed to fit much better)

 

[DerekS]



Must have been a gun themed birthday, because along with me buying myself a Glock 43 for it, my girlfriend let me pick out whatever Beretta I wanted and we're going to a local shotgun course to do their sporting clays course. I ended up with a 30" 12ga 686 Silver Pigeon I with vented barrels (not really sure how to describe it, but there is venting between the two barrels. They had another SP model that didn't have the venting but this one seemed to fit much better)

thats a hell of a pickup. Ive been REALLY wanting to pick up a silver pigeon.... seem to fit and feel better to me than most of the other O/Us.

 

[suited]



Well, back when I was in the gun mag business, it was sometimes my duty to review some really cheap handguns from outfits like Raven, Jennings, Lorcin and Davis. Most of them went "bang" every time I pulled the trigger. Quite often they grouped surprisingly well too. For reporting these facts, and facts they were, I was sometimes reviled for being a sellout, liar, whore and whatnot. Did I consider them "fine guns"? Hell, no! I doubt if the makers considered them "fine" guns, but they were affordable, and they worked, most of them. Were I nearly destitute, I should certainly have preferred a Davis .32 auto to no gun at all for protection.

All that Southern California "Ring of Fire" handgun industry is gone with the wind now. In those days, "Saturday Night Specials" were a favorite bugaboo of the anti-gun crowd. These days it's "deadly assault rifles." For a great deal of its history, there has always been a lot of class and covert racial bias in the anti-gun movement.

What defensive handgun costs anywhere near $5,000 unless it is engraved and gold-inlaid, maybe with ivory stocks? These high-dollar 1911 "custom carry" packages strike me as dictated more by ego gratification than any defensive necessity. Not that there is anything wrong with ego gratification. Otherwise, all my clothing would come from places like Target.

Cabot makes some pricey stuff.

http://cabotgun.com/pricing-ordering-1911-pistols/pricing/

 

[JLibourel]

^Oh my! I had never hitherto heard of Cabot. It looks as if they got up and running after I retired. This would explain my having been oblivious to them. I see that my friend Steve Fjestad gave them a ringing endorsement, so I guess they are really good. Still, when all's said and done, they are simply 1911s, and I am not sure anything can be done with them that can't be accomplished just about as well with a good Springfield Armory Mil-Spec at one-tenth the price.

I am sure they will appeal to the "man who has everything" types. Of course, if you ever did have to shoot anybody with your high-dollar Cabot pistol, no matter how justifiably, there is a near certainty that it will be battered around in a police evidence locker for a good long while and a fair chance that you will never see it again.

I note they are using the term "Commander" for one of their pistols. I am sure this must still be a registered Colt trademark, and I am surprised Colt hasn't gone after them. I can recall that over 20 years ago Colt really hammered an importer of made-in-Italy Peacemaker clones for calling it the "Peacekeeper." Evidently, the importers were unaware that Colt had offered a revolver called the "Peacekeeper" in the not too distant past. As I recall, it was a limited run version of the Trooper Mark V with a sandblast matte finish.

 

[DerekS]



I am sure they will appeal to the "man who has everything" types. Of course, if you ever did have to shoot anybody with your high-dollar Cabot pistol, no matter how justifiably, there is a near certainty that it will be battered around in a police evidence locker for a good long while and a fair chance that you will never see it again.

this is why my friend sold his Nighthawk. didnt make sense to have it sitting in a safe not seeing any use.