Grave of the Fireflies

[Kent Wang]

This movie was so boring I could not finish it. Just another in a long, proud tradition of boring Japanese films like Seven Samurai.

 

[tjchung]

Originally Posted by ozymandias

Your rant is irrelevant. Ignorance of many does not excuse the suffering of the few. Yes Japanese culture might be biased, and I'm not saying they were not part of the problem, but the stories in movies/books happened nontheless and it makes little difference whether US or Japan is responsible.

I'm sorry, I really don't mean to be sarcastic but I don't understand what you're trying to say.

The "rant" as you call it, is actually my review of the movie. The entire movie is based on the Japanese victim complex of "Hey, we don't know exactly what happened to other people during the war, but we sure suffered a heck of a lot!" As such its not surprising that they'd make such a ponderous, tearjerker of an anime whose only purpose is to emphasize Japanese suffering, especially by making the protagonists young children. Knowing that, its not surprising to see that the movie is a work of blatant propaganda. In a nutshell, its saying "Look how we suffered, look how much we lost" without ever going into the whole uncomfortable business of what happened on the other side or the fact that they pretty much started the whole thing. I'd call that pretty relevant.

You also say "stories in movies/books happened nontheless and it makes little difference whether US or Japan is responsible" I assume you mean the actual historical events that happened as chronichled in books and movies. So you're saying Japan is not to be held responsible and accountable for the 200 thousand civilian deaths at Nanking because it happened nonetheless? Then Germany is also not to be held responsible for the systematic deaths of 6 million jews because it happened anyway? I really don't see what you're trying to say here.

As for "Japanese culture MIGHT be biased", well thats quite an understatement. I don't know if you actually know anything about Japanese culture, their mindset or the history of far east Asia, but trust me, Japanese culture IS biased. Extremely. Every Gaijin who's ever lived there can tell you that.

 

[rach2jlc]

Shouldn't this be in the movies/entertainment area? As for the Japan sentiments from tjchung, it's considerably more complicated than you make it sound. Not saying there aren't genuine issues of culpability we can discuss, but not when you grossly oversimplify things to support your own (as yet unarticulated) political or social agenda. Further, those "textbooks" you discuss and the "deniers" aren't exactly the general sentiment and the extent of their adoption has been grossly skewed by detractors. You are conveniently grouping into one monolithic entity something that is hardly that unified; in fact, you're taking some ultra right-wing nationalist garbage and expanding it to be a mainstream Japanese view. Japan DOES have a problem thinking critically about its own past, but before one can try and figure out how to solve that, one has to look at the real situation, not some made-up one that's equally propagandistic. Quite frankly, Japan isn't the only... nor the worst... offender about re-writing or ignoring its own culpability in disgusting acts of history.

Originally Posted by Kent Wang

This movie was so boring I could not finish it. Just another in a long, proud tradition of boring Japanese films like Seven Samurai.
I thought it was pretty boring, too. BUT, I also find all those Miyazaki movies that people cry and drool over to be dreadfully dull and sentimental as well.

 

[incastoutcast]

I thought it was pretty boring, too. BUT, I also find all those Miyazaki movies that people cry and drool over to be dreadfully dull and sentimental as well.

THANK YOU.

I do enjoy some Miyazaki, but good lord some of them are horrifically dull and sentimental hogwash.

The best of his, IMO:

Porco Rosso

My neighbor Totoro

Howl's moving castle

 

[tjchung]

Originally Posted by rach2jlc

grossly oversimplify things to support your own (as yet unarticulated) political or social agenda.

as in making a movie that presents the Japanese as victims without one mention of the suffering victims on the other side to side step the annoying issue of accountability.

Originally Posted by rach2jlc

you're taking some ultra right-wing nationalist garbage and expanding it to be a mainstream Japanese view.

The LDP, or Liberal Democratic Party, an unabashedly right-wing nationalist party has been voted in control of the Japanese government for the past 54 years. They've controlled every aspect of Japanese life since 1955 with just one eleven month interruption in 1992. They control the school systems and content of historical text books, and the fact that past and current Japanese primary, middle and highschool history textbooks have many problematic issues with whitewashing is so well documented (even by the USA) that I won't go into it here.

Junichiro Koizumi, Prime Minister of Japan for 6 years is himself a member of the Seiwai Seisaku Kenkyukai, a self proclaimed Nationalist faction of the LDP. He also visited the Yasukuni shrine regularly to pay homage to dead Japanese soldiers, many of them convicted war criminals. Thats like the Chancellor of Germany visiting Hitler's grave with a wreath of flowers.

Even the recently replaced Prime Minister Asoh comes from a right-wing nationalist family that is famous in Japan for its wealth stemming from their vast coal mines. What most people don't know (or weren't told or didn't care) was that those coal mines, which financed the political careers of many in the Asoh clan, were worked by slave laborers forcibly conscripted from China and Korea from the 1930's until the end of the pacific war. Its not surprising that a prime minister who's career was funded by war crimes would be anxious to keep that inconvenient truth under the covers.

Now imagine an American politician doing the same thing, financing a political career from money made from slave labor and glorifying war criminals? And not in the distant past when slavery was considered the norm, but in recent times when the entire world considered it reprehensible. Imagine if he won elections? Who is morally more responsible? The politician himself, or the people who voted for him?

Why am I bringing this up? You mention the mainstream Japanese view. Now judging from your avatar, I can see that you have or currently reside in Japan. Therefore you know that most Japanese, despite their spectacularly individualist fashions, are actually quite conformist in many ways, including political and historical issues. Many just accept what they are told, because thats the way the Japanese education system works.

So when you have a right wing government that refuses to "lose face" abroad by taking responsibility for happenings in the past, that attitude is going to trickle down to the main populace. Its easy to control what can and can't be taught to an entire population, when the national education system consists of tests based on memorization of text books. No book reports, no analytical essays, no research projects, no crtitical thinking, no show and tell, nothing that would instill in young Japanese students a desire to find out for themselves what really happened, to make them say "well, why did we get nuked? What the heck did we do to deserve that?".

So when the Japanese are not taught exactly how or why the Pacific war started, or even their part in it but only that they got nuked by the USA and millions of Japanese suffered, then THAT is the mainstream view, barring a few admirable souls who actually made an effort to really get to the bottom of things and are considered crackpots and traitors by their own countrymen. And that mainstream view is further strengthened by popular movies like this, which from an artisitc view point doesn't even really deserve this much attention, further reinforcing the Japanese tendancy to whitewash embarressing war crimes, and only embelish their own suffering.

Originally Posted by rach2jlc

Japan DOES have a problem thinking critically about its own past, but before one can try and figure out how to solve that, one has to look at the real situation, not some made-up one that's equally propagandistic..

You are quite correct, propaganda like this movie can do the Japanese no good about resolving their historical issues. I really look forward to japanese animators giving us spectacular anime movies about the Nanking Massacre, Pearl Harbor, The Bataan death march, Unit 731 (The Japanese Biological warefare unit that conducted medical experiments on Chinese civilians a'la Dr. Mengele), The Changi POW camps, etc. One can only hope.

Originally Posted by rach2jlc

Quite frankly, Japan isn't the only... nor the worst... offender about re-writing or ignoring its own culpability in disgusting acts of history.

Quite true. One has only to see the text books on US history gloss over the near extermination of the native Americans, the Spanish American war, etc to realize that we all have skeletons in our closets.

Originally Posted by rach2jlc

I thought it was pretty boring, too. BUT, I also find all those Miyazaki movies that people cry and drool over to be dreadfully dull and sentimental as well.

Alas, I must disagree with you. My wife and I enjoy almost all of the Miyazaki anime movies. They have a serene transcendentalism that is wonderfully diverting. Japanese imagination is incredibly fertile and at times, wacky. Maybe it comes from all that historical denial?

Just for laughs, here's some more on Japanese culture:

http://www.cracked.com/funny-108-japan/

 

[Tokyo Slim]

Originally Posted by tjchung

as in making a movie that presents the Japanese as victims without one mention of the suffering victims on the other side to side step the annoying issue of accountability.
I think you didn't understand the movie or the book very well if you think it was "presenting the Japanese as victims" and ignoring historical events that the author of the book did not see, witness, or hear about. People write/film their personal experiences all the time without showing some sort of greater historical context. Just imagine what movies and books would be like if everyone held to the standard you put forth...

 

[tjchung]

Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim

I think you didn't understand the movie or the book very well if you think it was "presenting the Japanese as victims" and ignoring historical events that the author of the book did not see, witness, or hear about.

I understand very well your comment. But what do you mean by "understand the movie or the book"? You do no credit to the writer or the animator of this work merely by trying to understand it within the narrowest of contexts. The true understanding of any work of art, literature, anime, etc is to understand it in a greater context, such as the time period it was created in, the history it makes itself a part of, the humanity (or lack) the creator instills within it, the relevance to past, current and future generations, the fundamental message it tries to deliver. In this context, I personally feel this work lacks greatly, smacking merely of propoganda

Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim

People write/film their personal experiences all the time without showing some sort of greater historical context. Just imagine what movies and books would be like if everyone held to the standard you put forth...

Same as above. You need a greater context. Yes, people write/film their experiences all the time without any sort of greater historical context. In modern times, you would call most of these people bloggers. They usually have very little to show or say that makes any impact on the greater context of things. Of those who style themselves as professional creators, well that's why there are some whose works dissappear into obscurity, and others that shine as a tirbute to man's genius for centuries. Those works that have relevance in a greater context and display those fundamental ideals, morals and yes, ethics of humanity still resonate with people years and years after their creators turned to dust.

Case in point, Schindler's List. Do you think the book or the movie would have had the impact it did if the main protagonist had spent the entirety of the war just trying to run his factory as efficiently and profitably as possible, ignoring that "whole Jewish slave labor from the concentration camp" issue? Do you think it would still resonate with people even now if the protagonist hadn't had a mea culpa moment in the greater context of things, and began to do what was morally right no matter what? I doubt it. All the great works that resonate with us, and the reason they are still reverred is because they have a context in a greater scale, whether it is Somerset Maughm's European imperialism in Asia, Rudyard Kipling's protrayal of Western bigotry, Jane Austen's clueless British gentry, Kafka's social commentary or Mark Twain's satire, James Joyce's Ulysses and The Dead, Jack Kerouac's On the Road, John Steinbeck's Grapes of Wrath and even the earlier works of Yukio Mishima before he went crazy . These are the creators who's works far exceed the standard I put forth.

If you really want to know what I would consider the greatest story about the suffering of post war Japanese children in the greater context of things, read an obscure comic manga called "Barefoot Gen". That IMHO is one of the truely great works of storytelling in a true historical context.

 

[ozymandias]

Originally Posted by tjchung

I'm sorry, I really don't mean to be sarcastic but I don't understand what you're trying to say.

The "rant" as you call it, is actually my review of the movie. The entire movie is based on the Japanese victim complex of "Hey, we don't know exactly what happened to other people during the war, but we sure suffered a heck of a lot!" As such its not surprising that they'd make such a ponderous, tearjerker of an anime whose only purpose is to emphasize Japanese suffering, especially by making the protagonists young children. Knowing that, its not surprising to see that the movie is a work of blatant propaganda. In a nutshell, its saying "Look how we suffered, look how much we lost" without ever going into the whole uncomfortable business of what happened on the other side or the fact that they pretty much started the whole thing. I'd call that pretty relevant.

You also say "stories in movies/books happened nontheless and it makes little difference whether US or Japan is responsible" I assume you mean the actual historical events that happened as chronichled in books and movies. So you're saying Japan is not to be held responsible and accountable for the 200 thousand civilian deaths at Nanking because it happened nonetheless? Then Germany is also not to be held responsible for the systematic deaths of 6 million jews because it happened anyway? I really don't see what you're trying to say here.

As for "Japanese culture MIGHT be biased", well thats quite an understatement. I don't know if you actually know anything about Japanese culture, their mindset or the history of far east Asia, but trust me, Japanese culture IS biased. Extremely. Every Gaijin who's ever lived there can tell you that.

Entourage Episode (whatever the hell it was):

Fat women: "Mr. Cameron was the sinking of the ship a foreshadowing to the collapse of our economy?"

James Cameron: "No, I just wanted to make little girls cry."

The anime is based on an auto-biography about a guy loosing his little sister to malnutrition. Do you really have any evidence that the reason it was released was to promote Japanese propaganda?

I think you could say that Saving Private Ryan was part of America's plan to promote heroism and bravery during the war, but really people eat these stories faster that hotcakes. It sells.

 

[Tokyo Slim]

For every work of art you mentioned, there is a Casablanca that does not show Nazi brutality twords Jews and Gypsies, a Gone With The Wind that does not show the economic impact of slavery, and etc. Sometimes a story is a story and not a damn history lesson.

 

[Tokyo Slim]

Originally Posted by tjchung

I understand very well your comment. But what do you mean by "understand the movie or the book"? You do no credit to the writer or the animator of this work merely by trying to understand it within the narrowest of contexts.
I mean, the guy who wrote the book, lived in Japan during the war with his sister, whom he felt he let die of malnutrition due to his own inability to properly care for her. The story is not some cooked up "poor me" propaganda, it was an apology and a way to make sure his sister was remembered. If you want to read in what is not necessarily there, it is an anti-war movie at heart. You choose to view it based on your preconceived notions of Japanese people as a whole, and some sort of apparent general distaste for the Japanese, and not as a story written by a guy, about his experiences. Not every story, not even every GREAT story (contrary to your opinion) has to tell every important historical detail about the world from every perceivable viewpoint. Movies in particular gloss over important historical events all the time. Schindler's List did too. For example, the film offers no understanding of how fascism came to power, or how fascism was ultimately crushed. The movie avoids any mention of the resistance and the critical role communists played in its leadership, and indeed glosses over the fact that the Schindler Jews were ultimately rescued by communists. Or how about the bribes it often took to get on "Schindler's List"? Or that 700 of "Schindler's Jews" were sent off to the death camps while under his "protection"? Or that the munitions factory did *not* sabotage the rounds (obviously this would have been traced back to Schindler and gotten him in trouble) They purchased black market munitions and sold them to the Nazi's instead because they were largely incapable of making them. Does it mention that Schindler made trips to Israel to collect accolades and ask the Israeli government for money every year until he died in 1974? Does this mean that he wasn't a decent guy who tried really hard to do what he could? No. But it does mean that the movie doesn't accurately portray real life. If anything I'd say it was propaganda according to your defined terms.

 

[Redundant]

Originally Posted by tjchung

Its all part of that pathetic Japanese victim complex. Ask any Japanese how the Pacific war started, and 99% won't know. Answer; They bombed Pearl Harbor without declaring war! Ask how it ended, and they'll all say they are the only people to have gotten nuked.

Seriously, if the Japanese weren't so hypocritical about their own history, whitewashing their own part in what were truely monumental acts of barbarity that ranks right up there with the holocaust, I'd be more sympthetic about these films. But nowhere, anywhere is there anything from the Japanese media about how others suffered at the hands of the Japanese. Its all about how they themselves suffered.

You might say that such crimes were perpetrated by powerful cruel men long gone, who used their stormtroopers to keep the general population in line. And the current generation shouldn't be held accountable for whats done in the past. Really? Tell that to the German government. They are still apologizing and compensating for the crimes commited by powerful cruel men long dead. At least they own up to it, admit it, try to make amends and are commited to making sure that it never happens again, including educating their children truthfully about it no matter how embarressing it may be. Even now, Nazi memorabilia and images are illegal in Germany and IIRC Austria. The Imperial Rising Sun flag? You can still see it almost everywhere in Japan. Replica Japanese Kempeitai (secret police) uniforms? You can buy them in most major hobby shops. Thats why the Germans have respect in the international diplomacy circles, for their historical integrity, not because they have the lion's share of the electronics and automotive industry and the second largest consumer market in the world.

In Japan, there are still middle school textbooks that describe the Japanese invasion of China as an "advance". Other pieces of embarressing history are outright ignored or glossed over. The Japanese government is still outright denying the Naking Massacre even happened despite the eye-witness accounts of Chinese, German, French, English, American and even Japanese witnesses. Thats why these Japanese animators, raised on this whitewashed crap have no qualms about portraying how their own people suffered at the hands of the western powers, and yet have no intention of showing the tragic story from the other side.

Japanese children dying of malnutrition? Tragic. Lets make a movie about it so people know how much we suffered! Chinese children dying by bayonet practise by Japanese troops? Never happened! English, French, Dutch and Australian children dying of malnutrition in civilian internment camps because they weren't provided with the food and medical supplies the International Red Cross delivered in copious amounts, but were kept for the Japanese's own use? Shhh, lets not bring that up, shall we.

Its very hard for me to find words to describe how idiotic and close minded this statement is. Your failure to see larger themes of the movie such as the suffering of the innocent during the war is really quiet sad because thats the most obviouse one. I dont see why you have to be such a dick about it ether. The movie is NOT about Japanese suffering, its about suffering as a whole. The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are just the setting, a back drop for the real action. I think you need to drop your right wing bullshit and take a good hard look at your own hypocrasy.

 

[Flamboyant]

Originally Posted by tjchung

Its all part of that pathetic Japanese victim complex. Ask any Japanese how the Pacific war started, and 99% won't know. Answer; They bombed Pearl Harbor without declaring war! Ask how it ended, and they'll all say they are the only people to have gotten nuked.



The antecedants of japan's entry to WWII are a little more nuanced than you believe, but you are stupid, so keep thinking the way you do.

 

[tjchung]

Originally Posted by ozymandias

The anime is based on an auto-biography about a guy loosing his little sister to malnutrition. Do you really have any evidence that the reason it was released was to promote Japanese propaganda?

I think you could say that Saving Private Ryan was part of America's plan to promote heroism and bravery during the war, but really people eat these stories faster that hotcakes. It sells.

Propoganda can be as overt as Dr. Goebbels', and as sweet & subliminal as a television commercial for hair care products. I'm sure that the original writer, Akiyuki Nosaka had the greatest of intentions in writing this work dedicated to his sister. That does not change the fact that the underlying theme is so closely related to that Japanese victim complex that to me, it smacks of propoganda.

And yes, if you look at most of the war movies made by the USA during WWII such as the works of John Ford and starring John Wayne, the underlying themes are incredibly propogandistic. They are meant to instill a "go team go", "we can win this! USA! USA!" attitude to both the soldiers on the frontline as well as the civilians back home. As such, to view them now with the lessons of history firmly in mind is a painful exercise, as the overtly pro-American, insultingly bigoted attitudes of the characters, dialog and plotlines are so very apparent.

On the other hand, you could actually say that Saving Private Ryan is at heart an anti-war film in all its blood and gore. The underlying theme is far from the propagandistic war films the US made during WWII, but of average people put in extreme conditons, left to struggle with the prospect of survival at all costs, or sacrifice for a greater good. Not that it didn't have a tinge of those old war movies, with every German soldier made out to be a raving, sadistic nazi. And yes, it sold like hot cakes because Spielberg, like a good story teller knows how to draw his audiences into his spell by appealing not only to the older generation who lived through this time, but for the younger kids brought up on a diet of blood and gore special effects and explosions, as well as those grognards who basically had a field day watching all those authentic WWII weapons and hardware on the big screen.

Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim

For every work of art you mentioned, there is a Casablanca that does not show Nazi brutality twords Jews and Gypsies, a Gone With The Wind that does not show the economic impact of slavery, and etc. Sometimes a story is a story and not a damn history lesson.
I wholeheartedly agree. I love a good story as much as the next guy.

Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim

I mean, the guy who wrote the book, lived in Japan during the war with his sister, whom he felt he let die of malnutrition due to his own inability to properly care for her. The story is not some cooked up "poor me" propaganda, it was an apology and a way to make sure his sister was remembered. If you want to read in what is not necessarily there, it is an anti-war movie at heart.
Indeed it is, and that's what makes it so sad, because it ties in so conveniently with that Japanese attitude of denying their own role in that war, and only making public their own suffering. Tell me of one Japanese author, screenwriter, photographer, cinematographer, director, etc who has even one work of distinction, especially in the Japanese market regarding the suffering of any non-Japanese during the WWII period. If the children in this anime were Chinese, Manchurian, Malaysian, Korean, Philippino or western, do you think any Japanese anime studio would have touched it?

Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim

You choose to view it based on your preconceived notions of Japanese people as a whole, and some sort of apparent general distaste for the Japanese, and not as a story written by a guy, about his experiences.
On the contrary. I have no preconcieved notions about Japanese people, because having lived there for many years I have firsthand notions of Japanese people. Look at it this way, lets say you're Jewish, a survivor of the holocaust. Next door lives a young couple of German descent. They are nice enough, polite people. But they are the products of an education system that completely denied them any knowledge of what really happened in WWII, except what they themselves suffered. So every morning, they greet you at the bus stop with such comments as "Did you know my uncle Fritz was killed by French partisans? Poor guy, he was just 18. Why did they have to do that?", or "Why did the Russians **** so many German women when they invaded Berlin? Why did they have to be so cruel?" or "I don't understand why you left Germany back in 1938. Didn't you know Germany needed every man for the war effort? I'm sure they would have appreciated your talents" and "Have you seen Grave of the Eidelweiss? Its about German children starving to death in post war Germany. It really makes you think about how much we Germans have suffered.". Comments like this are bound to be aggravating to one who knows the true history of the times. And thats basically what I felt whenever I was with Japanese people talking about their recent history, or rather their ignorance of it.

Originally Posted by Redundant

Its very hard for me to find words to describe how idiotic and close minded this statement is. Your failure to see larger themes of the movie such as the suffering of the innocent during the war is really quiet sad because thats the most obviouse one. I dont see why you have to be such a dick about it ether. The movie is NOT about Japanese suffering, its about suffering as a whole. The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are just the setting, a back drop for the real action. I think you need to drop your right wing bullshit and take a good hard look at your own hypocrasy.
Ahh, we are now finally in the realm of ad hominims. I was wondering who would take the first plunge. Apparently it seems there are still people to whom a lively debate is some sort of smack-down, and the more personal insults he can throw in the stronger his position will be. Well done! I am speechless before the perfection of your cold logic. You win, sir. The only comment I have is that for the past few posts, I have been speaking out AGAINST right wing bullshit, as you call it. Perhaps you should go back and reread the relevant postings before making a reply. And as for my failure to see the larger theme of suffering of the innocent during the war, well haven't I for almost the entirety of this thread been remarking that this anime, and most other Japanese works of the same ilk do not do ENOUGH to portray the suffering of the innocents, the innocents from all the other countries they ravaged during the war? Where's the hypocrasy in that?

Originally Posted by Flamboyant

The antecedants of japan's entry to WWII are a little more nuanced than you believe, but you are stupid, so keep thinking the way you do.
Of course they are nuanced, as all historical events are. The Pacific war was brewing for a long time, right from the opening of feudal Japan at gun point by Commodore Perry, to the Meiji Restoration, To Admiral Togo's victory over the Russian fleet at the Tsushima straights, to the breaking of the Anglo Japanese pacts after WWI, to international censure of the Japanese invasion of Manchuria, to the rise of Hideki Tojo's militant government, to the US embargo of oil and scrap metal to Japan during the years leading up to the bombing of Pearl Harbor. Oh yes, its much more nuanced than that. These are historical facts that I am forever thankful were provided to me without any form of government mandated concealment or censorship, a privelage most Japanese students do not have, unfortunately. But apparently it makes you feel better about yourself to think that anybody who disagrees with you does so merely because he is stupid, so we'll leave it at that.

 

[Fuuma]

Originally Posted by rach2jlc

I thought it was pretty boring, too. BUT, I also find all those Miyazaki movies that people cry and drool over to be dreadfully dull and sentimental as well.

It was directed by Takahata...

 

[Fuuma]

Originally Posted by Kent Wang

This movie was so boring I could not finish it. Just another in a long, proud tradition of boring Japanese films like Seven Samurai.

Huh? Seven Samurai is an ACTION movie, we're not talking about Ozu here...