Formula 1 - F1 - Current Season Discussion

[prozach1576]

After a somewhat interesting start, this has turned into a garbage season in a hurry. I agree about the radio rules. They should have come up with a way to allow critical safety and technical info but not routine coaching.

 

[sugarbutch]

The NBCSN team were calling for a Rosberg penalty. Rare case of US broadcast superiority?

The race seemed exactly like the no-radio races to me...

 

[Dragon]

Interesting that the U.S. commentary was calling for a penalty while the UK (Sky) pretty much all the commentary and former drivers were saying the penalty was uncalled for. Maybe it has to with the racing styles in Europe and U.S., and since Fittipaldi was the driver stewart, his long experience in the U.S. influenced his decision.

I agree, they should have just changed the radio rules to just allow critical/safety instructions and not driver coaching, but I think the drivers know what they are doing anyway and controlled pacing would happen with or without radio ban.

 

[Texasmade]

The US commentary guys on NBCSN are all Brits so it's not like a bunch of Americans from ESPN saying that Nico should've been penalized. 2 of the NBCSN guys used to work in F1 also.

 

[idfnl]



Interesting that the U.S. commentary was calling for a penalty while the UK (Sky) pretty much all the commentary and former drivers were saying the penalty was uncalled for. Maybe it has to with the racing styles in Europe and U.S., and since Fittipaldi was the driver stewart, his long experience in the U.S. influenced his decision.

I agree, they should have just changed the radio rules to just allow critical/safety instructions and not driver coaching, but I think the drivers know what they are doing anyway and controlled pacing would happen with or without radio ban.

There would be more variance in controlling the pace, with this radio bullshit they are just given target lap times nowhere close to the limit of the car and they get to robot around at that pace.

It's an idiotic style of racing more akin to cycling than real F1.

 

[sugarbutch]

Under the restrictive rules, the team could set strategy with the driver, so there's no change in their ability to tell the driver to back off or push. I believe Hamilton's request to know Nico's pace would not have been allowed, though.

NBCSN has two Brits and an Aussie. Diffey did cover a lot of US racing as did Hobbs, and the latter also raced in the US, including Indy. Emmo's being a steward wasn't material, I think. Rosberg has twice driven straight on at a hairpin to block a pass, and he's twice been penalized.

 

[idfnl]

In WRC they eliminated providing split times/pace info of other cars so that drivers were always pushing. They saw guys were slagging off the stages if they weren't being caught. Much better show.

Hamilton did the exact same thing to Nico at COTA and was not penalized. These rules are just arbitrary. So you pinch a guy off at the corner you've got? Senna would have been penalized for half his passes.

F1 robot driver must driving racing line only

F1 robot must lose huge amounts of time for blue flag

F1 robot must do mid 119s for 6 laps then pit

F1 must hear "hammer time" to actually approach limit of car

Lame. Again, everyone forgot why this was eliminated to begin with.

 

[sugarbutch]

The difference is that Hamilton is actually turning the steering wheel. In both cases where he was penalized, Rosberg made no attempt to turn into the corner. He doesn't fade the other guy out wide, he just drives straight on.

Reducing all of that stuff to "radios bad" is oversimplification to the point of meaninglessness. Do you think that if there were no radios the driving and pit strategies would be materially altered? They would still work out the theoretical ideal ahead of the race, tell the driver, and he'd execute. Don't forget that it's not just the guy in front getting radio messages. Everyone behind is getting told that they're catching the guy in front or whatever. Without those messages, they'd also just drive to the strategies they were given ahead of the race. Which is what we saw when the radio traffic was controlled.

Hockenheim was boring because Hanilton got to the first corner first in the fastest car and the guy in the second fastest car got there fourth.

 

[Dragon]

The main difference between Rosberg getting penalties and Hamilton none, is that in Rosberg's moves the opponent would have to crash into Rosberg or go off the track on corner entry. The reason why the other driver would have to crash into Rosberg is because Rosberg is totally off the racing line, even though the opponent is giving him plenty of space to make the corner on the inside. This is different from COTA because Hamilton is on the racing line and it is only Rosberg that chose himself to stay on the outside without backing out on corner exit, therefore putting himself in the position of having to go off the track. It seems consistent that they are giving penalties when the driver forces an opponent off the track by being completely off the racing line.

 

[idfnl]



The difference is that Hamilton is actually turning the steering wheel. In both cases where he was penalized, Rosberg made no attempt to turn into the corner. He doesn't fade the other guy out wide, he just drives straight on.

Reducing all of that stuff to "radios bad" is oversimplification to the point of meaninglessness. Do you think that if there were no radios the driving and pit strategies would be materially altered? They would still work out the theoretical ideal ahead of the race, tell the driver, and he'd execute. Don't forget that it's not just the guy in front getting radio messages. Everyone behind is getting told that they're catching the guy in front or whatever. Without those messages, they'd also just drive to the strategies they were given ahead of the race. Which is what we saw when the radio traffic was controlled.

Hockenheim was boring because Hanilton got to the first corner first in the fastest car and the guy in the second fastest car got there fourth.

So if there is no material difference, why did they eliminate the rule? That's nonsensical.

Radio transmissions suck, it was obvious to see in Hockenheim. "Hammer time, Lewis" was just groan inducing, all I hear was "you can finally drive the car 3 seconds away from your quali time for a few laps". F1 used to be about the limit, now its all about managing the gap, managing the strategy, managing tires, managing fuel... you'd think the driver's were MBA's.

The main difference between Rosberg getting penalties and Hamilton none, is that in Rosberg's moves the opponent would have to crash into Rosberg or go off the track on corner entry. The reason why the other driver would have to crash into Rosberg is because Rosberg is totally off the racing line, even though the opponent is giving him plenty of space to make the corner on the inside. This is different from COTA because Hamilton is on the racing line and it is only Rosberg that chose himself to stay on the outside without backing out on corner exit, therefore putting himself in the position of having to go off the track. It seems consistent that they are giving penalties when the driver forces an opponent off the track by being completely off the racing line.

Look at Hamilton in COTA, he was way off line, but the argument was but but but that was a WET line. It was obvious he took that line to deny him space, plain and simple. Seems like with Hamilton all his moves are always golden.

In DTM, that was a perfect pass. In F1 1989 that was a well executed pass. Max was not forced off the track, he just refused to give up the corner. Why? Because of all these enormous runoff areas. If there were grass there, he would have backed out.

Nico did what he had to do to get by, that's what racing is. Keep *****-fying the sport and see where you end up.

 

[sugarbutch]

The rule was eliminated because it was impossible to enforce consistently and non-ridiculously. Prior to the change, the team could have told Hamilton everything except for Rosberg's pace. Gaps, strategy, position were all allowed. As was "Hammer time, Lewis". You may not like the phrase, but there's nothing new about keeping pace in reserve and speeding up at key moments in a race.

Fendered cars have different racing rules because they are less susceptible to disabling damage from contact. If you want wheel banging, don't watch F1. Max didn't refuse to give up on the corner, he never even turned in. Whether or not there's runoff, his choices in that situation are to turn in on Rosberg and collide a la Hamilton in Austria or go off the track.

 

[idfnl]



The rule was eliminated because it was impossible to enforce consistently and non-ridiculously. Prior to the change, the team could have told Hamilton everything except for Rosberg's pace. Gaps, strategy, position were all allowed. As was "Hammer time, Lewis". You may not like the phrase, but there's nothing new about keeping pace in reserve and speeding up at key moments in a race.

Fendered cars have different racing rules because they are less susceptible to disabling damage from contact. If you want wheel banging, don't watch F1. Max didn't refuse to give up on the corner, he never even turned in. Whether or not there's runoff, his choices in that situation are to turn in on Rosberg and collide a la Hamilton in Austria or go off the track.

Senna's passing style was to make the other driver decide whether to give in or crash him. Yet again regarding COTA, nobody has yet described why Hamilton running Nico off was not the same exact behavior that we saw in Hockenheim.

Watch here again... Hamilton nowhere near the apex, and you have Nico given no racing room and having to correct to avoid a collision.


[VIDEO][/VIDEO]


In all these pass scenarios that trigger controversy, there is a 3rd choice which is to give up the corner. Drivers no longer give up the corner because of these runoff areas, and then whine to stewards that they were run off. You're not runoff, you're just beaten to the corner. Nobody can explain why a driver can't take whatever line they want into a corner. If you're in position then you choose a piece of road because you gained the advantage. But you can't impose your will in this sport any longer, you *****foot an advantage and then wait for radio messages about a penalty for doing your job? It's idiotic.

Neither Hamilton or Rosberg deserved penalties in any of these recent or past scenarios. Race the track limits and choose your line when you have an advantage, open and shut.

____

Keeping pace in reserve is one thing, but executing an entire race with that in mind is quite another. Just go back a few years to the Vettel RBR era where he sprinted for 3 laps and then sat there endlessly managing a 5 second gap until the finish. It was horribly boring.

Even worse today.

This is not F1, it's basically endurance racing crammed into a 2 hour format. Not a fan of endurance racing.

 

[sugarbutch]

You do see that Hamilton is turning the steering wheel, yes? This is the difference that I and others have highlighted to you repeatedly. You can dismiss the importance of this factor, but at least acknowledge it.

I would also prefer a formula which allowed for flat-out racing. But that's down to tires, fuel, engine/transmission longevity, etc., not radios.

 

[Dragon]

@idfnl, Let's just say that Hamilton is better at running opponents off the track than Rosberg. Part of racing definitely is running others off the track, but I guess with the new modern rules there is a sort of right way to do it and a wrong. Rosberg's 2 instances are probably consistent with the wrong way to do it in the eyes of the stewards and Hamilton is within the grey area of the rules. I think the obvious difference between the two is that in Hamilton's COTA case, Rosberg was never threatened by Hamilton possibly crashing into him and it was only Rosberg's unwillingness to concede the corner on exit that forced Rosberg himself off the track. In other words Rosberg forced himself off the track by not giving up the corner...it doesn't matter if Hamilton didn't clip the apex, because he was taking a wider line on purpose to give Rosberg the least amount of space possible (but still on the racing line...especially in the wet...that's racing). In Rosberg's two cases, Rosberg would have caused a serious collision if the other driver did not take avoiding action...Rosberg was no where near the racing line (wide or not)...the other driver gave Rosberg the corner (conceded the corner entry to Rosberg by giving him plenty of space)...Rosberg still ran the opponent off the track on entry and it was not really a matter of the opponent not giving up the corner on exit which causes the driver to go off the track. In other words it was actually Rosberg that caused the other driver to go off the track and not the other driver's unwillingness to concede the corner that put the driver in the position to go off the the track himself.

I don't think the forcing opponent off track rule is necessary and they should be able to race freely, but since the rule is there...

 

[Joffrey]

It's going to be a long 3 weeks...