conservative business dress WAYWRN: An Experiment

Oi. The tie above IS knit. I have no problem with the disagreement on the shirt, I usually wear the jacket with stripes (see above) but chose this picture to see contrast of the pant/jacket that the first image has. And I don't think gingham would be a good option here either, but that's just my taste I suppose. Solids work well.

I don't think that's a knit tie the way I mean knit tie. Looks like a grenadine, which is a kind of knit, but I mean like a sock tie.

Originally Posted by Mark from Plano

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OK. Since this appears to be a 7-continent threak, I'll chime in with a few thoughts from fly-over country. 1. Here, only some lawyers and a few others wear suits to work these days. Sad but true. My standard business uniform is exactly this, but without a tie. Also I usually go with a patterned sport jacket, but sometimes a navy blazer (like today) Most people in my office think I over-dress. I work in banking.
Poor Mark. I remember your ethical struggle regarding DJs and what passes for black tie in your neck of the woods. Do you work in banking or in Banking? I think one of the most interesting things that this thread could do would be to compare and contrast conservative business dress in different regions/countries. Of course, there are limits. When we get to the point of discussing whether tucking in your polo shirt is conservative business dress, we will need to reconsider. But I think a discussion of conservative business dress in, say, the South v. the Northeast would be very interesting. I agree with Manton that odd jackets are never conservative business dress but for a different reason. Suits are, in some sense, effortless. The pants a jackets already match when you get them. But odd jackets require more thought and, though less formal, strike people in a casual atmosphere as more elaborate and, therefore, more dandyfied. You might throw on a suit because you have to and do it without really thinking. But you wear an odd jacket, especially with a tie because you want to. Thus, in an environment already prejudiced against suits, an odd jacket and tie seems even more out of place.

Originally Posted by Manton

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I also think--and it's hard to explain the basis of this--that his shirt & tie combo, while nice, is a suit combo, not an odd jacket combo.
But this is where the interesting bit starts. Please elaborate. BTW, a question about lighter pants with a navy jacket/blazer. Ever since you coined the term, I have been really conscious of the California Tuxedo Syndrome. I have, therefore, been making it a point to not wear light-colored pants with a navy jacket. I know that, technically, a California Tuxedo requires khaki pants but you really can't be too careful about this kind of thing.

Originally Posted by someotherstyle

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If the pants were matching (i.e. a suit), this would actually be a killer outfit. Pocket square is too matchy with shirt but otherwise a great outfit. The subtle plaid pattern is conservative business dress enough for most places too so a good fit for this thread.

On the CBDness of odd jackets, I agree with the exception of Fridays. It seems like, in many professions, blazers and sport coats appear out of nowhere on Fridays - even in many cases for client meetings that would be attended in suits on other days of the week.

Originally Posted by Bounder

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I have, therefore, been making it a point to not wear light-colored pants with a navy jacket. I know that, technically, a California Tuxedo requires khaki pants but you really can't be too careful about this kind of thing.

This is a bit overboard, don't you think? Light grey flannels with navy jackets are classic.

Originally Posted by Bounder

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Poor Mark. I remember your ethical struggle regarding DJs and what passes for black tie in your neck of the woods. Do you work in banking or in Banking?
This all seems to be written in English, but I'm apparently too stupid to understand any of it. It comes across as rather insulting, but I'll assume for this purpose that is a failed attempt at humor and leave it at that. For the record I have no idea what you're referring to in the first paragraph. As for the second, I have no idea the difference between banking and Banking, but for the record I do middle market corporate lending.

Originally Posted by Bounder

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I think one of the most interesting things that this thread could do would be to compare and contrast conservative business dress in different regions/countries. Of course, there are limits. When we get to the point of discussing whether tucking in your polo shirt is conservative business dress, we will need to reconsider. But I think a discussion of conservative business dress in, say, the South v. the Northeast would be very interesting.
Exactly the reason why I haven't participated in this thread up until now. If that's the way that we want this thread to go, that's fine, I'll cease participating since it will no longer have anything to do with me, since despite working in a business environment in a large office building in a major southern city, it will have exactly zero to do with how business people normally dress in my city. I'll let the few of you who still live and work in such places have at it. For the record, I wish it were different here. When I started my career 25 years ago I wouldn't have considered wearing anything but a suit. Today, I'd rarely consider wearing one except on certain occasions. That isn't my choice, that's simply the reality of the business culture in Dallas. If you'd like to start a thread on strollers and formal daywear in the workplace it will have an equal appeal to folks here in Dallas.

Originally Posted by Bounder

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I agree with Manton that odd jackets are never conservative business dress but for a different reason. Suits are, in some sense, effortless. The pants a jackets already match when you get them. But odd jackets require more thought and, though less formal, strike people in a casual atmosphere as more elaborate and, therefore, more dandyfied. You might throw on a suit because you have to and do it without really thinking. But you wear an odd jacket, especially with a tie because you want to. Thus, in an environment already prejudiced against suits, an odd jacket and tie seems even more out of place.
A very interesting line of reasoning that has absolutely no basis in anything approaching the real world here where nearly everyone wears odd jackes and trousers in the workplace. You make not think it makes any sense in your world, but little else makes sense in mine. Again, I don't disagree with the concept that business people should wear suits. It just wouldn't fly in my world any more than a stroller would.

Originally Posted by Mark from Plano

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This all seems to be written in English, but I'm apparently too stupid to understand any of it. It comes across as rather insulting, but I'll assume for this purpose that is a failed attempt at humor and leave it at that. For the record I have no idea what you're referring to in the first paragraph.
http://www.styleforum.net/showthread.php?t=124660

A very interesting line of reasoning that has absolutely no basis in anything approaching the real world here where nearly everyone wears odd jackes and trousers in the workplace. You make not think it makes any sense in your world, but little else makes sense in mine.

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When your colleagues wear odd jackets, do they also wear ties? That's kind of what I was getting at. I don't think that the average person regards someone wearing dark brown oxfords, dress pants, dress shirt, odd jacket and tie as "less dressed up" than someone wearing a suit and tie. But the point here is really the discussion. I am really interested to hear how all this works in other places.

Originally Posted by Manton

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I don't know if it's time or place but I see a lot of squares in Manhattan these days. Six years ago when I moved back here, I remember seeing very few. I saw close to none in DC. Where I worked there, no one wore them except me and one other guy who was a huge A&S customer. His attire drew a lot of comments. My boss sometimes remarked on my squares.

I have never had anyone say anything about brown shoes. I think Americans are used to non-black dress shoes. When I was growing up, #8 shell was considered the ultimate dressy shoe. We called it "oxblood." The only times my father wore black shoes was with black tie or to a funeral; that is, until later in his career when doing business with fancy people from LA and back east.

A good example of regional distinctions. In DC, pocket squares are treated almost like ascots. Brown shoes are likewise treated as the shoes one might find on a potato farmer. The capital is extremely conservative ... and extremely poorly dressed at the same time. Think anonymous J.A. Bank.

Originally Posted by edmorel

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greg, that is a great shirt collar and you tone the pattern down really well with the tie and suit. Not crazy about the shoe style/color but i have moved into Manton's "old man" camp where I have moved away from U last and it's ilk and going for more rounder toes.

something that I think some people here don't get is how to not overdue patterns/colors, some here would have paired that with a wild tie, patterned suit etc etc.

But ... when you have one somewhat "loud" pattern (say, a loud tie or a loud shirt), if you surround it with all-plain this and that, you magnify the power of the loud pattern. If one posits that clothes should blend together in such a way so that no one item stands out from the rest, it might well be that a shirt with, say, large checks should be paired with a large-patterned tie so that neither takes center stage. The patterns cancel out and all is good.

It might not be everyone's taste to wear combinations like that, but I think the bias against multiple patterns can sometimes be counterproductive. It invites the famous scene from Animal House when the frat brothers descended upon some poor rush with "Hey - nice tie! Boomer (or whatever), come over here and check out this tie!"

Originally Posted by Bounder

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When your colleagues wear odd jackets, do they also wear ties? That's kind of what I was getting at. I don't think that the average person regards someone wearing dark brown oxfords, dress pants, dress shirt, odd jacket and tie as "less dressed up" than someone wearing a suit and tie. But the point here is really the discussion. I am really interested to hear how all this works in other places.
In my particular situation it runs like this: (1) Suit and tie. --My office: 10% or less in my office and only in situations like visiting brass, client meeting, professional association function, etc. --City-wide: 20%, mostly some downtown lawfirms (though many have gone business casual) and CPA firms (I'd say that these are mostly business casual by now). (2) Odd jacket/trousers and tie --My office: 0%. Never see it. If it's a tie occasion, it's a suit occasion. I have done it on occasion, but no one else has ever done it that I remember. --City-wide: 25-30%. I see this quite often on the streets downtown. (3) Odd jacket/trousers, no tie --My office: 80+%. This is the daily uniform for all the men. --City wide: 50% or so (4) Trousers/Khaki's, no jacket, no tie. --My office: 10% lots of the loan officers leave the jacket home on Fridays, some even wear jeans on Fridays if they aren't seeing clients. I never wear jeans into the office and at my age I never will. Just a bridge too far for me. Actually a couple of bridges. --City wide: 10% or so. By far, most men are in jackets if they work in an office I'd say. All of this is just a wild guess and I could be WAY off. Just my impressions from having worked downtown Dallas for most of the last 17 years.

Originally Posted by Manton

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A bit too much going on here.

It looks fine from a distance but up close it appears a bit busy. Now, the patterns, in terms of scale and differentiation, are combined quite well. I think I am put off by my dislike of the square and tie. The former I just don't like.

Agreed. Paisleys work best when they are larger leaving less ground. Smaller paisley for whatever reason are half-hearted and limp. If you're going to throw a party, throw a party. A big paisley tie can be tasteful with the right colors and, of course, be horrendous with the wrong, but it needs to be big. Not sure why - it just is.

Originally Posted by oldog/oldtrix

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I can't tell you how much I hate that tie. OK, I could tell you, but I won't. Putting that aside, the socks and shoes take you out of conservative business dress country faster than the speed of light.

Originally Posted by Manton

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It's good. I am not in love with the tone of the tie. And, of course, smoking is bad for you.

This that latter comment is news to the smoker? Don't hector.

Originally Posted by Bounder

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I agree with Manton that odd jackets are never conservative business dress but for a different reason. Suits are, in some sense, effortless. The pants a jackets already match when you get them. But odd jackets require more thought and, though less formal, strike people in a casual atmosphere as more elaborate and, therefore, more dandyfied. You might throw on a suit because you have to and do it without really thinking. But you wear an odd jacket, especially with a tie because you want to. Thus, in an environment already prejudiced against suits, an odd jacket and tie seems even more out of place.

I agree completely. There is a guy in my office who wears odd jackets far more often than suit. But he does it well - and wears the dreaded pocket square almost always. For this, he earned the title of uber-dandy ... at least until I experience my sartorial awakening. And then, one ascot on a casual Friday and all hell broke loose ....

Originally Posted by J. Cogburn

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For this, he earned the title of uber-dandy ... at least until I experience my sartorial awakening. And then, one ascot on a casual Friday and all hell broke loose ....
Just hilarious. Your ascot probably clashed with your pocket square. Classic rookie mistake. Mark provided an interesting breakdown of various kinds of office wear in Dallas above. We should ask him to update with data on ascots. Mark, thanks very much for the insight. I am genuinely surprised that as many or more people in Dallas wear odd jacket and tie as wear suits. What happens in the summer in downtown Dallas? In Singapore, which has similar heat issues -- except they have them year round -- conservative business dress is dress pants, dress shirt and tie but no jacket. I think it looks awful and it is also kind of illogical. I suspect this developed back before air conditioning was as prevalent as it is now. Because today, while it is 86 and extremely humid outside, all the offices are 68 and you could wear a jacket perfectly comfortably.