Thinking about law school? Read this.

nerdykarim · Jun 24, 2010

Originally Posted by JD_May

Hahaha... yeah, sorry, this isn't even up there, I know a guy who bille over 3300 two years ago and is routinely in the 2800-3000 range. 2200 at biglaw is like "nice work, here's your bonus" but you're not playing on the "my life is work" field yet, in spite of having to work a few late nights a week.
That is ridiculous. I feel like starting (another) "I'm in law school and hate my life" threak.

lawyerdad · Jun 24, 2010

Originally Posted by DNW

I don't know, LD. There's a gross excess supply of attorneys (both unemployed and underemployed), with more coming every year, and there's no real sign of lower billing rates. On top of that, many GCs from Fortune 500 firms have flat out said they would not pay for 1st year associates. LPO is on the rise, and recent progress in ESI discovery technology has the promise of significantly reducing the doc review work available to junior attorneys (as well as contract attorneys). And then, there's this recent Altman Weil survey. There's a lot of structural changes going on right now because the economics just don't add up. Of course, BigLaw will continue to exist in the future, but I doubt their business model, vis a vis staffing and billing, as it existed up until now, will be the same in a few years.

I could be wrong, of course -- always a reasonable bet. But I'm old enough now to have seen several boom-and-bust cycles come and go. I certainly agree there will be structural changes, modifications in business models, etc. But my completely-out-of-my-*ss expectation for the future is that 5 or 10 or 20 years out, there will be more about big law firms that looks and feels the same than things that feel radically different.

intent · Jun 24, 2010

Originally Posted by rjakapeanut

if you believe a statement like that you're not very smart, lol. that's a really bad justification for your beliefs.
Really? Prove me wrong. Once upon a time, I thought I was mature for my age. Time proves otherwise. Have some humility, kid.

DNW · Jun 24, 2010

Originally Posted by JD_May

Hahaha... yeah, sorry, this isn't even up there, I know a guy who bille over 3300 two years ago and is routinely in the 2800-3000 range. 2200 at biglaw is like "nice work, here's your bonus" but you're not playing on the "my life is work" field yet, in spite of having to work a few late nights a week.

At some point, something is going to snap, and it ain't going to be pretty.

Valor · Jun 24, 2010

Is this the point in time where I bring up Investment Banking?

lawyerdad · Jun 24, 2010

Originally Posted by intent

Really? Prove me wrong. Once upon a time, I thought I was mature for my age. Time proves otherwise. Have some humility, kid.

Isn't what time proves that you get more mature as you age? The fact that when you're 30 you realize that you weren't all that mature at 20 doesn't necessary bear on your relative maturity at 20.

Also, given that the point of disagreement is clearly one of subjective opinion, it is -- as I'm sure you realize -- not particularly susceptible of "proof". A few years down the road, you might come to feel that the tone of your post reflects less maturity than you currently seem to think.

javyn · Jun 24, 2010

Screw biglaw. Now I gotta go bates stamp some docs

odoreater · Jun 24, 2010

Originally Posted by Piobaire

Hmm, I think 3k hours per year is nothing to ***** about. An FTE (full time equivalent) is 2080 hours. So basically, this lawyer making big cash is working less than 1.5 x usual hourly employee's time. Given the average rate of pay for hourly employees vs. that of Big Law types, seems a reasonable trade off. Truly, 60 hour weeks are nothing to overly complain about, given the probably compensation and career path. Now, 80 is worth bitching about. IMO, the energy drain at anything over about 60 hours increases at a log rate.
I don't think it's that simple. The usual hourly employee is not actually spending 40 hours per week working, because they're also checking e-mails, chatting with colleagues, checking espn.com, posting on styleforum, etc. throughout the day. The usual biglaw lawyer has to do all of this in addition to actually working for 8 hours of the day. On top of that, other issues come up: you have to make up for any missed time (e.g., time missed for sickness, personal reasons, etc.), yeah you get your 3 or 4 weeks vacation, but there are no "sick days" no "personal days," etc. Also, it happens from time to time that you don't have any work or you are waiting for work, but you still have to be in the office (and still have to look like you are doing something), and you have to make up for that non-billable time too. There is also the issue of "face time," you have to be seen at the office by partners and senior associates. You are not going home until the senior associate and partner in your group have already gone home no matter how much work you've done that day. I billed 2000+ hours in all of my years in "biglaw," and it sucked a whole lot of ass. There is pretty much no time in your life to do anything other than work. There is no chance to even see the light of day.

Piobaire · Jun 24, 2010

OE, just going off the report that was posted, which was basically 1.5 hours worked vs. 1 hour billable. So 2k billable hours = 3k hours worked. Basically, 50% more than a 40 hour per week working stiff for probably far more than 50% more than what the usual 40 hour per week working stiff earns. Yes, yes, cost of school, missed income while in school, etc. Still, career trajectories and future earnings are vastly different divergent.

lee_44106 · Jun 24, 2010

I'm surprised

hasn't chimed in.

lawyerdad · Jun 24, 2010

"They have to read and respond to mail and firm memos, go to meetings, read legal publications, and eat lunch"”not to mention kib-bitz with colleagues, if not friends."

I chuckled.

Fuuma · Jun 24, 2010

Originally Posted by Piobaire

OE, just going off the report that was posted, which was basically 1.5 hours worked vs. 1 hour billable. So 2k billable hours = 3k hours worked. Basically, 50% more than a 40 hour per week working stiff for probably far more than 50% more than what the usual 40 hour per week working stiff earns. Yes, yes, cost of school, missed income while in school, etc. Still, career trajectories and future earnings are vastly different divergent.

You do realize that those 2K hrs have to be spent practice law? That's roughly the equivalent of rubbing sandpaper on your ******** if you ask me....

Flambeur · Jun 24, 2010

Originally Posted by lee_44106

I'm surprised

hasn't chimed in.

I think

got a bit smarter about mixing his professional, personal, and internet lives.. At least I hope so.

rjakapeanut · Jun 24, 2010

Originally Posted by edinatlanta

Dude, if you "really have no other choice than to go to law school", how are you not limiting yourself? And if you aren't, then you just can not express yourself well at all.

Can't believe it hasn't been said before but being mature for 19 doesn't mean anything. Look back at yourself when you are 21 or 22 and you'll see what I mean. You're getting a lot of advice here from people who were in your boat not too long ago. If you were truly mature for a 19 year old you'd at least listen to what they say.

yeah that's not exactly a contradiction. perhaps poor wording caused that.

i researched a ton of careers. lawyer sounded like a perfect fit. you can't be a lawyer without first going to law school. lost school is insane for obvious reasons, but i have no choice but to go to law school, because i would like to practice law.

i agree that when i look back on myself in a few years i'll probably regret some things etc. but this won't be one of them.

Mark it 8 · Jun 24, 2010

Originally Posted by rjakapeanut

yeah that's not exactly a contradiction. perhaps poor wording caused that.

i researched a ton of careers. lawyer sounded like a perfect fit. you can't be a lawyer without first going to law school. lost school is insane for obvious reasons, but i have no choice but to go to law school, because i would like to practice law.

i agree that when i look back on myself in a few years i'll probably regret some things etc. but this won't be one of them.

You asked for advice. Thus far you have contested every single piece of advice you've been given, even advice that doesnt dissuade you from attending law school. Why did you even ask for input if you dont want any?

Thinking about law school? Read this.

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