Made in Italy by Chinese workers

[lasbar]

Originally Posted by blix993

Guys I had this discussion with a on line seller of italian suits regarding the entirely made in Italy issue.

I searched a little bit on internet and I did found this article
"http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/business/global/01italy.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1&hp"

therefore i trust more and more where it is written entirely made in Italy.
Immagine that the italian authorities are just throwing years of experience away just becasue they are not strong enough to do something about it!!!

Well I would made the made in Italy things that are finaly assembled there as shoes suits..ets... and entirely made in Italy where every part of the production is made there, and it should be like this every where!! don't you think???

Italian made means it is made in Italy most likely by immigrimant workers, in this case Chinese workers.

The same for the made in America tag some of you are raving about, most likely made by Mexican or Chinese workers...

Only one operation is needed to be allowed to bear the tag Made in...

Sometimes the garment can only be finished in a country to be allowed to be classified as Made in.



The

 

[blix993]

Originally Posted by lasbar

Italian made means it is made in Italy most likely by immigrimant workers, in this case Chinese workers.

The same for the made in America tag some of you are raving about, most likely made by Mexican or Chinese workers...

Only one operation is needed to be allowed to bear the tag Made in...

Sometimes the garment can only be finished in a country to be allowed to be classified as Made in.



The

correct, that is why Santo Versace is trying at least to get a law where the made in Italy must have at least 2 of 4 operation made in Italy.

And those who says entirely must have 4 of 4... then if they are all made of chinese workers..tht is another story and I agree with you.

Questions? have you ever seen a brand that declare entirelymade in Italy and with italian craftmanship?? I think that all big names are producing every where in the world, maybe some minor companies still have thei italian craftmanship...

Would you pay moore if the suit would be made only by italian craftmanship or not? I mean would people be ready to pay more in order to have specialised italian workers instead of chines ones??

I thin that all question is this??? dont you think???

 

[lasbar]

Originally Posted by blix993

correct, that is why Santo Versace is trying at least to get a law where the made in Italy must have at least 2 of 4 operation made in Italy.

And those who says entirely must have 4 of 4... then if they are all made of chinese workers..tht is another story and I agree with you.

Questions? have you ever seen a brand that declare entirelymade in Italy and with italian craftmanship?? I think that all big names are producing every where in the world, maybe some minor companies still have thei italian craftmanship...

Would you pay moore if the suit would be made only by italian craftmanship or not? I mean would people be ready to pay more in order to have specialised italian workers instead of chines ones??

I thin that all question is this??? dont you think???

The Made in must be a benchmark in terms of quality and also social issues...

Immigrants are more likely to work in better conditions in Italy than in India or China...

The Made in must be the proof that all operations are made in the country specified on the tag...

 

[Icehawk]

I found it interesting that Gucci actually warrants their products - but the other products in their group do not and it seemed from that linked pdf article pretty much every other designer brand uses at least some level of illegal/chinese labor.

I'm sure a lot of you will recall the same issues that came up with car origins and how now do show a breakdown of the major elements and a large % to be a "made in xxx". I'm all for labels that offer a bit more granularity - perhaps country of origin for fabric, and show a % for origin of labor/assembly.

"Fabric made in China"
"30% assembled in China, 70% in Italy"


Of course this is disregarding the whole problem of Italy & politics.

 

[fxh]

It wasn't all that long ago that many iconic USA clothing labels were manufactured in Saipan. In Asia, in Asian working conditions, by Asians (mostly Chinese) but were able to be labelled Made In USA.

many well-known U.S. brands also operated garment factories in Saipan for much of the last three decades. Brands included Gap (as of 2000 operating six[12] factories there), Levi Strauss,[13] Phillips-Van Heusen,[14] Abercrombie & Fitch,[15] L'Oreal subsidiary Ralph Lauren (Polo),[16] Lord & Taylor,[17], Tommy Hilfiger, and Walmart.[18]

 

[CutandSew]

Originally Posted by alexSF

Read these interesting articles about the "chinese" made in italy of "Fashion Brands".
There are the videos and the english version

http://www.report.rai.it/R2_popup_ar...075811,00.html
http://www.report.rai.it/Contents/fi..._del_lusso.pdf

http://www.report.rai.it/R2_popup_ar...078530,00.html
http://www.report.rai.it/Contents/fi...elLusso_en.pdf

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing this. Having resided in Florence for a year, I regret not visiting Prato and checking it out. I never would have guessed that there were asians producing garments in Italy. The only non Italians I've ever seen (excluding tourists and other transients) in Florence were the Africans hawking fake bags on the Ponte Vecchio and of course the Roma.

 

[jet]

I do not purchase any clothing made in china.

Well my uniqlo socks are but I don't give a **** about those.

 

[max b]

As I told in previous post of this thread I think it is not a problem who is producing, but everybody has to follow the laws about work, safety, final consumers health, tax, right of the workers..
This is the only way in my opinion : the final consumer has the right to buy having all the information and knowledge about how the item he is buying is produced. No matters the race, the religion, the Country. We can't fight against the market or about the prices Far East production have, but we can be proud of producong everything legal, respecting the workers and the laws...then it is up to the final consumer to decide and up to the policts and fiscal police to defende us and control that everybody follow the laws (actually this should be the way in a perfect world...unfortunately we are not living in a perfect world, but I'm still a dreamer).
The quality is the other key : we have to produce only the best.

 

[fabiomassimo]

Originally Posted by max b

As I told in previous post of this thread I think it is not a problem who is producing, but everybody has to follow the laws about work, safety, final consumers health, tax, right of the workers..
This is the only way in my opinion : the final consumer has the right to buy having all the information and knowledge about how the item he is buying is produced. No matters the race, the religion, the Country. We can't fight against the market or about the prices Far East production have, but we can be proud of producong everything legal, respecting the workers and the laws...then it is up to the final consumer to decide and up to the policts and fiscal police to defende us and control that everybody follow the laws (actually this should be the way in a perfect world...unfortunately we are not living in a perfect world, but I'm still a dreamer).
The quality is the other key : we have to produce only the best.

That makes two of us then (y) although this and a few other forums prove that some people still "care"

 

[jchosko]

Amid much racist claptrap, China bashing, and paranoia about a global future under Chinese domination in the NYT comments to the article that this thread is about, I found this smart comment by someone who appears to be in the know. Thought it would be of interest here:

"New York
September 13th, 2010
4:41 pm

I am in the textile business and currently in China till next week.

First of all we have to remember that through the ages China had one of the most advanced civilized cultures on the planet.
Chinese inventions such as paper, fireworks, and pasta have had incredible impact on mankind.
Silk was a Chinese discovery, and part of the trade that was known as the silk road.
It is actually theorized that the Chinese discovered America prior to Columbus and the Chinese had a massive 3000 ship trade fleet that circumnavigated the globe when the rest of the world was still developing.

There are many negative comments regarding the quality of Chinese made goods, and that the content origin should state who made the item.
If you insist on Made in Italy by Chinese workers, where does it end. Do you have to say Made in USA by 3rd generation Irish who left during the potato famine.
The comments basically hint of racial bias. It is called a country of origin label, not a racial profile of the person making the item. If we go to that extreme we might as well provide a DNA sample with the label as well.

In regards to quality it should be noted that there are high quality factories and lower quality factories. This is determined by the skill set of the workers, the quality control, raw materials and production methods.
To say that the Italian shoes produced by Chinese labor is of a poorer quality is also racially biased and uninformed. It depends on the type of factory and the above factors not who is making them.
There are skilled and unskilled workers of every race.

It never ceases to amaze me how many factories I see in China that are producing high end product for some of the top labels and brands around the world.
Brands such as Armani, Zegna, Strenesse, Cerruti, Polo Purple Label etc are all producing in China with skilled Chinese labor.
On top of that many top Italian companies are sending their technicians to China to oversee production and teach their Chinese counterparts the technical aspects for the particular finishing requirements etc.
Piacenza has sent technicians to China to work with fabric mills, Corneliani has had a joint venture with a Chinese producer, and Zegna has a tailored garment factory in Wuxi which produces primarily for the EU.
The fact of the matter is that China has the infrastructure and skilled labour to produce some of the top product in the world. Let's face it, some of these skills are no longer present anywhere else or only at the top prices.

Sure you can spend $6000 for a Brioni or Kiton suit that is made in Italy and with "Italian" labor.
However I was in a factory in China that hired a former pattern maker and technician for Gianluca Isaia.
This brand is based in Naples and suits retail around $3000.
He was working for a Chinese company helping them develop a hand made suit line in China.
After viewing a suit I had another factory make he made the comment that the suit was about 80% handmade. Something that you could not get in Italy, even Kiton and Brioni are only about 60% handmade. The fact of the matter is that it would not be cost effect even at $6000 a suit to add the additional handwork. Yet the Chinese are able to do this due to low price skilled labor.

The fact of the matter is that most consumers do not have a clue about what they are buying.
Value and quality is only perceived and most consumers do not know the difference. If you shop at Walmart you are getting a low priced item. The problem is that the consumer does not want to pay more, hence you have retailers such as Walmart, & H&M. Do not generalize all Chinese products in the same lot as the factories that produce for these retailers satisfy a need.

Do you think that the skill set for apparel manufacturing in Romania or Poland is better than factories in China? A good Chinese factory can compete with any factory anywhere for apparel."

 

[justsayno]

It's mostly perception unfortunately. Although Chinese are working with the latest and greatest technology, China can't shake off its perception being a low cost manufacturing (another signal of quality) sweatshop. Foxconn scandals aren't helping.

Even the affluent Chinese consumer today perceives that Made in Italy is a notch above Made in China.

 

[maomao1980]

Originally Posted by justsayno

Even the affluent Chinese consumer today perceives that Made in Italy is a notch above Made in China.

The Chinese has always perceived foreign made goods to be superior so long as the goods are foreign in origin. The same thing was true when Europe imported luxury goods from China.

 

[Pantisocrat]

Originally Posted by maomao1980

The Chinese has always perceived foreign made goods to be superior so long as the goods are foreign in origin. The same thing was true when Europe imported luxury goods from China.

The problem with many Chinese and East Asian people for that matter is that they still live in a colonial mindset, interpreting information through the viewpoint of the oppressors. Take HK and Singapore for instance. Biracial (white mixed) people there star in many movies and generally attain higher social economic status than the natives. Similarly, many Filipinos still claim Spanish ancestry as though it's a thing to be proud of, all the while denigrating the dignity of their darker skinned brethren, who were likely the true natives of their land. This colonial mindset is the reason why affluent Chinese people with money look down on the products made by their own people. If you're assessing value, then Chinese goods, across the board, represent superior value. This is the reason why African countries trade mainly with China and why more and more people buy Chinese made goods.

 

[maomao1980]

Originally Posted by Pantisocrat

The problem with many Chinese and East Asian people for that matter is that they still live in a colonial mindset, interpreting information through the viewpoint of the oppressors. Take HK and Singapore for instance. Biracial (white mixed) people there star in many movies and generally attain higher social economic status than the natives. Similarly, many Filipinos still claim Spanish ancestry as though it's a thing to be proud of, all the while denigrating the dignity of their darker skinned brethren, who were likely the true natives of their land. This colonial mindset is the reason why affluent Chinese people with money look down on the products made by their own people. If you're assessing value, then Chinese goods, across the board, represent superior value. This is the reason why African countries trade mainly with China and why more and more people buy Chinese made goods.

WTF?

 

[justsayno]

Interesting POV ... But not something that I would subscribe. Africa trades with China because China is pumping tons of high fixed cost investments in Africa to gain access to natural resources such as oil and minerals. Because of the acceptance of Chinese businesses in Africa, Chinese apparel manufacturers have set up manufacturing plants in Africa. I went to Gap recently and found some merchandise that were made in Lesotho. http://www.irinnews.org/Report.aspx?ReportId=76405 From the Report: The Chinese presence in Lesotho is not a new phenomenon. For more than a decade, immigrants from mainland China, Taiwan and Hong Kong have fuelled Lesotho's economy, as apparel manufacturers from Asia were drawn by tax incentives and rent discounts to attract foreign direct investment. Today these textile factories are the country's biggest employers, providing more than 40,000 jobs, according to the country's Ministry of Trade and Industry.

Originally Posted by Pantisocrat

The problem with many Chinese and East Asian people for that matter is that they still live in a colonial mindset, interpreting information through the viewpoint of the oppressors. Take HK and Singapore for instance. Biracial (white mixed) people there star in many movies and generally attain higher social economic status than the natives. Similarly, many Filipinos still claim Spanish ancestry as though it's a thing to be proud of, all the while denigrating the dignity of their darker skinned brethren, who were likely the true natives of their land. This colonial mindset is the reason why affluent Chinese people with money look down on the products made by their own people. If you're assessing value, then Chinese goods, across the board, represent superior value. This is the reason why African countries trade mainly with China and why more and more people buy Chinese made goods.