Which martial art is most effective for self defense?

[il ciclista]

Originally Posted by ZackyBoy

Some guy who did Aikido came to my BJJ club once wearing that weird gown thing. He had been doing it for like 10 years and I pretty much murdered him with my ground game and I was only a blue belt, and his strange gi ended up getting all torn up. Cool that it can do what you said, but not viable in reality.


lol! i could only imagine what this looked like. poor guy

 

[Eason]

Originally Posted by thekunk07

that's well and good but i have fucked up a lot of martial artists with sambo and blind rage.

Don't underestimate muscle, steroids, and being genetically psychotic (eastern european)

 

[scarphe]

Originally Posted by Nereis

Some sort of baton, or any heavy bludgoning weapon is good for defending yourself from your average crack-infused-mugger. Good enough to get a few shots in and stun him, then run away. Realistically, if you pull a gun or a knife out on him it's likely he won't survive. That isn't good for him, or you. But bringing your fists into something where you're most likely to be able to carry some sort of weapon would be bordering on insane given most criminals at the very least have a pocketknife.
if you arenot properly trained to use one, it is only slightly better than your fists.

 

[emptym]

Originally Posted by thekunk07

that's well and good but i have fucked up a lot of martial artists with sambo and blind rage.
Interesting. I'd never heard of Sambo. A Google search for it took me to some Youtube videos and then to that Human Weapon show. I watched a couple episodes. The fights between the two hosts and the TKD expert was interesting. Usually one of the hosts fights a few experts, but this time the two hosts fought one expert. The big host was knocked out and the other one injured his knee, or was too scared to continue: 9 minute vid, knockout around 3 mins. The Krav Maga video is very impressive too. I haven't watched many episodes of the show though. What do people think about it?

Originally Posted by ZackyBoy

Some guy who did Aikido came to my BJJ club once wearing that weird gown thing. He had been doing it for like 10 years and I pretty much murdered him with my ground game and I was only a blue belt, and his strange gi ended up getting all torn up. Cool that it can do what you said, but not viable in reality.
Great, but imo we shouldn't judge a whole martial art based on experience with one practitioner.

 

[globetrotter]

Originally Posted by emptym

Great, but imo we shouldn't judge a whole martial art based on experience with one practitioner.

I had a very similar experience with an akido practitioner, who had years of good training behind him, inlcuding in a reseidential training program in japan.

I don't want to generalize but I think that in a lot of martial art schools, the training is so far removed from training with a resisting opponent (and I think that this is the case with akido) that generations of people can train without ever having encountered somebody who is resisting. by that I mean you could, concievably, study from somebody who has never actually fought anybody, who studied from somebody who has never actually fought anybody, etc etc.

 

[scarphe]

Originally Posted by globetrotter

I had a very similar experience with an akido practitioner, who had years of good training behind him, inlcuding in a reseidential training program in japan.

I don't want to generalize but I think that in a lot of martial art schools, the training is so far removed from training with a resisting opponent (and I think that this is the case with akido) that generations of people can train without ever having encountered somebody who is resisting. by that I mean you could, concievably, study from somebody who has never actually fought anybody, who studied from somebody who has never actually fought anybody, etc etc.

but still it is incorrect to judge all an art based upon one school, though i have never practised aikido i have heard there are different schools or lieneages of training and some often use opponents that resist. the worst exampke of thsi way of thinking is when people that practise bjj claim that judo does not teach anything abotu ground fighting.

 

[LA Guy]

Originally Posted by emptym

Interesting. I'd never heard of Sambo. A Google search for it took me to some Youtube videos and then to that Human Weapon show. I watched a couple episodes. The fights between the two hosts and the TKD expert was interesting. Usually one of the hosts fights a few experts, but this time the two hosts fought one expert. The big host was knocked out and the other one injured his knee, or was too scared to continue: 9 minute vid, knockout around 3 mins.

The Krav Maga video is very impressive too.

I haven't watched many episodes of the show though. What do people think about it?

Well, a TKD expert is probably going to win a TKD contest of any sort, because TKD is one of the most stylized martial arts, and tournament rules heavily favor TKD attacks. For example, in a TKD match, you are not allowed to punch to the face or kick the legs, the first of which is a terrific counter to any kick, and spinning kicks (which take a lot of time and require a lot of space) in particular. If MMA fights, which are the venue with the fewest rules (though the current "Unified rules" are far more restrictive than the old Pride Rules (which allow stomps and soccer kicks to a downed opponent), or Vale Tudo (essentially, anything goes - see UFC 1)), are any indication, however, TKD does rather poorly against other forms of martial arts. Or... maybe we just haven't seen a good adaptation of TKD to a "fight" situation. For example, until Lyoto Machida came along, people were making fun of traditional karate. I personally think that it is stupid to dismiss any martial art which has any history behind it based on a poor outings in open, MMA style fights.

I've never seen Aikido used effectively, even by Shodan + level guys, against guys with even limited boxing and BJJ. However, I know one BJJ practitioner who took up BJJ after 8 years of aikido, and he learned remarkably quickly (he is currently a brown belt), and is great at controlling an opponents body, which is the central emphasis of BJJ. He attributes his success in BJJ to his knowledge of Aikido, which he says teaches more about leverage, timing, and body control than anything else. I'm not going to argue against this because though we are about the same size, and I am stronger than he is, and tougher, he has easily crushed me on numerous occasions.

 

[globetrotter]

in the clip I think that you can see if the big guy was allowed to punch, he very well would have knocked the "proffesor" out.

 

[Newo]

Boxing/Wrestling. Boxing, seems pretty obvious why, the standup is where all fights start. Wrestling because if it looks like it IS going to the ground, you want to be on top.

 

[emptym]

Originally Posted by globetrotter

... by that I mean you could, concievably, study from somebody who has never actually fought anybody, who studied from somebody who has never actually fought anybody, etc etc.
That's true. What do you think about this though: When I was a teenager, I got in a few fights. At that time, I'd done karate for a year and TKD for a few years. During the street or schoolyard fights (with some insane people, one of whom swung a baseball bat at me and grew up to kill a few people including himself), I found myself automatically doing things that I had done in forms -- never against an opponent, let alone a resisting opponent.

Originally Posted by LA Guy

Well, a TKD expert is probably going to win a TKD contest of any sort, because TKD is one of the most stylized martial arts, and tournament rules heavily favor TKD attacks. For example, in a TKD match, you are not allowed to punch to the face or kick the legs, the first of which is a terrific counter to any kick, and spinning kicks (which take a lot of time and require a lot of space) in particular.
I will certainly grant you that TKD tournaments have very specific rules, and that many TKD schools train almost exclusively with those rules in mind. But I've found over the years, spending a few months to a year (each) doing kick boxing, jujitsu, aikido, arnis/escrima, and karate, that all martial arts -- if done well -- lead to many of the same techniques. Iow, i have kind of a "many paths, one mountain" view of the "best" or "most effective" martial art. I explained this in one of my first several posts on SF. That said, I'm pretty sure that if some BJJ guy got me on the ground, I'd be dead.

If MMA fights, which are the venue with the fewest rules (though the current "Unified rules" are far more restrictive than the old Pride Rules (which allow stomps and soccer kicks to a downed opponent), or Vale Tudo (essentially, anything goes - see UFC 1)), are any indication, however, TKD does rather poorly against other forms of martial arts. Or... maybe we just haven't seen a good adaptation of TKD to a "fight" situation. For example, until Lyoto Machida came along, people were making fun of traditional karate. I personally think that it is stupid to dismiss any martial art which has any history behind it based on a poor outings in open, MMA style fights.

The last tournament I competed in was in the Philippines, eleven yrs ago. It was an open tournament. For my first fight I drew the undefeated national champion of kick boxing. He had worked for a few years as a professional kick boxer in Thailand. We were about the same height and weight. He was maybe an inch or two shorter but 10-20 lbs heavier than I was. The tournament had virtually no rules. There was head stomping while people were on the ground, groin kicks, elbows, head butts... Every match in the heavyweight division, which I was in, ended with broken bones or knock-out. We wore flimsy boxing gloves, mouth guards, and a cup if you had one, which I didn't. He hit me in the head quite a few times with punches, and it rang my bell a bit, but didn't hurt too bad. I kicked him with a solid side kick to the stomach and it didn't faze him much. Then he punched me in the face a couple more times. But about two minutes into the first round (3, 3-minute rounds), I did a pretty advanced TKD kick: faked low with my right foot and then kicked high, to the head, with my left, a round kick. It knocked him out, cold. Medics revived him after about a full minute. His master and his school pressured the tournament directors to give him another chance with me. So we continued. He immediately kicked me in the balls, but missed the good stuff, thank God. He tried some knees and other things on me, but I was able to block them and use some TKD counter-maneuvers like jumping back from a clench while doing a back kick. Long story short, I tried the same kick on him that had knocked him out. This time, he grabbed my foot when I faked. He tried to twist it, but I was already in the air and my other foot hit his head, so hard this time that it gave him a long, deep gash on his cheek, and sent the two of us to the ground (he still had ahold of my leg). He wasn't knocked out, but that was the third time in the round that I'd knocked him down, so they gave me a TKO. By no means did that show, to me at least, that TKD is better than kick boxing. But it, among other experiences, has led me to believe that TKD can be very effective against other martial arts.

I've never seen Aikido used effectively, even by Shodan + level guys, against guys with even limited boxing and BJJ. However, I know one BJJ practitioner who took up BJJ after 8 years of aikido, and he learned remarkably quickly (he is currently a brown belt), and is great at controlling an opponents body, which is the central emphasis of BJJ. He attributes his success in BJJ to his knowledge of Aikido, which he says teaches more about leverage, timing, and body control than anything else. I'm not going to argue against this because though we are about the same size, and I am stronger than he is, and tougher, he has easily crushed me on numerous occasions.

Interesting. Is the old story true that the founder of Aikido thought (traditional Japanese) jujitsu was a necessary prerequisite for studying Aikido? IOW, he would take no students who were not already black belts in jujitsu?

Originally Posted by globetrotter

in the clip I think that you can see if the big guy was allowed to punch, he very well would have knocked the "proffesor" out.
You may be right. In your favor would be (1) the fact that TKD people in general are very bad at defending punches to the face, since it's illegal in tournaments (I suck at it for sure) and (2) the fact that the big guy had about 10" and 120 pounds on the prof (Acc. Wikipedia, Duff is 6'4", 280 lbs). On the other hand, the prof was not expecting the punch and he took it well. I would think he would do even better if he was to go into a fight knowing punches to the face were allowed, and if he were to fight an opponent of even height/weight.

 

[globetrotter]

^

what do I think about it? I think that you have had good training and made a large investment of time and effort.

there is a reason that asian martial arts were practiced for so long, and have been so successful, I don't think that they are worthless.

I think that, in many cases, they aren't tought very well in the states and in some other parts of the world.

I don't think that teaching forms is worthless, either. like you mentioned, it can give you skills that you can use later on. my personal feeling is that those arts that require you to wear more body armor really help a person get a feel for being hit and hitting.

as to the clip with the tkd match - I found it interesting that duff could have landed a punch to the face, and with his size and expereince, it may very well have ended the fight. what would ahve happened in a less ritualized fight? who knows. duff had maybe as much as 100 pounds on his opponent, and maybe 10 years, and with the framework of the match the tkd guy knocked him out. who knows what would happen?

 

[emptym]

I agree. Well said.

 

[willpower]

People who break up up a fight by pulling the two fighters away? There should be another outside ring of people to pull those people away.

 

[upnorth]

If you are not properly trained in any single one form of martial arts or at least mastered it to a reasonable degree, then it doesn't matter which martial arts is best. That said, Krav marga and Sambo has techniques that seem effective in subduing people, including armed assailants.

The best advice for self defense is to play dirty, improvise weapons and run fast.

 

[Gradstudent78]

Originally Posted by Newo

Boxing/Wrestling. Boxing, seems pretty obvious why, the standup is where all fights start. Wrestling because if it looks like it IS going to the ground, you want to be on top.

Both can be very good, but depending on how they are taught you may need to adapt them for self defense uses to be optimal. For boxing you need to spend time working without gloves and how things might change when clinching wont be stopped. For wrestling (non-bjj), you usually learn when you go to the ground to turn onto your stomach (don't want to get pinned), which is pretty much the worst thing you can do in a self defense situation. That said, the type of training and conditioning involved does tend to be excellent.