The Made-to-Measure Thread

[induere_to]

I suppose that one difference between MTM and Bespoke is that with bespoke you’re more likely to be able to bring your own fabric?

I was brought the above Fox Flannel for CMT. Customer had been holding onto it for a while. I declared the fabric as it was worth with UPS, $1,300 CAD (as paid by the customer)--good thing I did because Chinese customs asked for the receipt for proof before they could release it. I was charged $400 CAD in duties to have it cleared.

I'm not opposed to taking CMT orders. I'm trying to figure out a way to make it easier and more cost efficient. Merchant Fox, as an example, sells fabrics for around 160 pounds a metre; but as someone with an account with Fox Brothers, the fabric costs me almost a third of that price. If you came to me wanting Fox Brothers, you could probably save $1,000 rather than buying the fabric yourself and pursuing CMT; the duties for Pedro's Fox Brothers from the UK was $80 USD. A lot, but still better than the $400 CAD plus +170 CAD it can cost to ship it and then with the difference from not buying the fabric through a guy that has an account.

Bespoke is much less hassle. You just... drop it off.

 

[heldentenor]

I suppose that one difference between MTM and Bespoke is that with bespoke you’re more likely to be able to bring your own fabric?

In general yes, but I've had a handful of MTM jackets and suits made CMT with cloth I supplied.

 

[classicalthunde]

I suppose that one difference between MTM and Bespoke is that with bespoke you’re more likely to be able to bring your own fabric?

I've found a few MTM shops that will let you CMT (Kent Wang and Juniors do!), but I think you for most places you need to inquire directly and not expect there to be any discount from the normal base price.

I find that fabric selection plays a much bigger role at the high end MTM and semi-bespoke shops than the entry level MTM spots

 

[hpreston]

went and visited the Armoury a couple of weeks ago, was keen on trying out their model three. It did not fit me well, and they insinuated that ring jacket was very particular and system-oriented and ultimately if OTR was not in the ball park then it might be tough to even get there with MTM.

it was interesting to hear them talk distinctly about their different MTM factories and what they can and can’t do...

Edit: also, I love the fabric choice for a first commission, classic color but an interesting pattern to chop it up a bit!

I am curious to hear more about your experience if you are willing to share. What was so off with the OTR fit that they thought MTM might not work?

For me, I need a bit of extra room in the jacket’s midsection, a slightly shorter than Regular jacket (but longer than a short), slightly lower collar in the back and a bit extra room in the rouser waist/seat.

Most of the RJ OTR needs a good amount of work to get it “right” for me, but the MTM pattern they have for me is spot on (this is #1 of 3 three so far… more pics to come)

Also, thank you for the compliment, I wanted something in the grey family, but with a bit of pattern. This particular cloth is Fox air, so it’s super breathable in the summer. I’ll likely do the blue version of this same cloth (Fox Air in a Glen Plaid) next spring.

 

[classicalthunde]

I am curious to hear more about your experience if you are willing to share. What was so off with the OTR fit that they thought MTM might not work?

For me, I need a bit of extra room in the jacket’s midsection, a slightly shorter than Regular jacket (but longer than a short), slightly lower collar in the back and a bit extra room in the rouser waist/seat.

Most of the RJ OTR needs a good amount of work to get it “right” for me, but the MTM pattern they have for me is spot on (this is #1 of 3 three so far… more pics to come)

Also, thank you for the compliment, I wanted something in the grey family, but with a bit of pattern. This particular cloth is Fox air, so it’s super breathable in the summer. I’ll likely do the blue version of this same cloth (Fox Air in a Glen Plaid) next spring.

I tried on all three of their fitting garments for MTM (RJ, the Model 101 series from St. Andrews, and Orazio Luciano stuff) while I was there. The RJ fit the worst off the rack, the shoulders were a mess (mine are narrow and pitched forward) I was in one of the bigger sizes and the chest and waist were tight as well. They didn't tell me it was a no-go outright, but they did indicate that I might have better luck with one of their other MTM makers and that RJ is particular about the adjustments they make in relation to the overall garment design.

The Orazio stuff fit great right off the bat, could probably get away with just a good alterations tailor as opposed to MTM. The Model 101 stuff was in the middle, but I felt like it could have worked too. I also think they steered me towards these since there is a lot more handwork and room for individual adjustments. They said that they submit measurements, pictures, and overall stylistic direction and that those factories are more able to just 'make it happen' then RJ. They told me of someone who commissioned some Orazio stuff, but wanted it to look like a regular Brooks Brothers business suit and they made it happen...and another person who wanted the white Casablanca dinner jacket, and they made that happen too despite both of those being significant departures from their house style.

I just got the impression that Ring Jacket as a maker was less 'flexible' than the other two...for instance, they did not take CMT, but it was an option for Orazio and the model 101

 

[hpreston]

I tried on all three of their fitting garments for MTM (RJ, the Model 101 series from St. Andrews, and Orazio Luciano stuff) while I was there. The RJ fit the worst off the rack, the shoulders were a mess (mine are narrow and pitched forward) I was in one of the bigger sizes and the chest and waist were tight as well. They didn't tell me it was a no-go, but they did indicate that I might have better luck with one of their other MTM makers and that RJ is particular about the adjustments they make in relation to the overall garment design.

The Orazio stuff fit great right off the bat, could probably get away with just a good alterations tailor as opposed to MTM. The Model 101 stuff was in the middle, but I felt like it could have worked too. I also think they steered me towards these since there is a lot more handwork and room for individual adjustments. They said that they submit measurements, pictures, and overall stylistic direction and that those factories are more able to just 'make it happen' then RJ. They told me of someone who commissioned some Orazio stuff, but wanted it to look like a regular Brooks Brothers business suit and they made it happen...and another person who wanted the white Casablanca dinner jacket, and they made that happen too despite both of those being significant departures from their house style.

I just got the impression that Ring Jacket as a maker was less 'flexible' than the other two...for instance, they did not take CMT, but it was an option for Orazio and the model 101

I appreciate your thorough reply. Yes, RJ is very particular about cloth (no CMT, some books/Mills they won’t work with)

If Orazio fits well off the rack, maybe that’s the way to go

 

[Crispyj]

I tried on all three of their fitting garments for MTM (RJ, the Model 101 series from St. Andrews, and Orazio Luciano stuff) while I was there. The RJ fit the worst off the rack, the shoulders were a mess (mine are narrow and pitched forward) I was in one of the bigger sizes and the chest and waist were tight as well. They didn't tell me it was a no-go, but they did indicate that I might have better luck with one of their other MTM makers and that RJ is particular about the adjustments they make in relation to the overall garment design.

The Orazio stuff fit great right off the bat, could probably get away with just a good alterations tailor as opposed to MTM. The Model 101 stuff was in the middle, but I felt like it could have worked too. I also think they steered me towards these since there is a lot more handwork and room for individual adjustments. They said that they submit measurements, pictures, and overall stylistic direction and that those factories are more able to just 'make it happen' then RJ. They told me of someone who commissioned some Orazio stuff, but wanted it to look like a regular Brooks Brothers business suit and they made it happen...and another person who wanted the white Casablanca dinner jacket, and they made that happen too despite both of those being significant departures from their house style.

I just got the impression that Ring Jacket as a maker was less 'flexible' than the other two...for instance, they did not take CMT, but it was an option for Orazio and the model 101

Well, you have to remember Ring Jacket is a RTW company that offers MTM. They develop their own models, mostly for domestic markets, catering to Asian bodies.

I have read from a Korean menswear store owner who also carries his own RJ models (like The Armoury AMJ03) that RJ is very reluctant to give out their house developed patterns. Most of these private models are tweaked from existing RJ models.

The current base pattern for most of RJ and other brand model is the 2X3, developed 8 years ago. The base pattern used before 2X3 was the model 184 (which we all know). Model 184 is like 30 years old! So you can kind of see how staunch they are about their patterns. The Armoury seems to get special treatment as they get new models every year .... I'm joking. Mark probably helps RJ develop some of their in house model so he gets extra perks, AMJ07 = RJ Model 290.

RJ MTM is pretty lacking, RTW is great if it fits. I'd pony up for Orazio or 101 Series if I had to go MTM.

 

[classicalthunde]

The price difference between the three was pretty negligible to be honest...I think maybe $200 between and Drapers Ascot RJ and an 101/Orazio one...RJ does tiered pricing and the 101 and Orazio MTMs include most fabrics except cashmere and escorial and other luxury fabrics in their bass pricing.

I’m waiting to hear back about the re-scheduled I Sarti trips to the east coast, but if they are a no go this year, I’ll most likely do Orazio through The Armoury

 

[Crispyj]

The price difference between the three was pretty negligible to be honest...I think maybe $200 between and Drapers Ascot RJ and an101/Orazio one...RJ does tiered pricing and the 101 and Orazio MTMs include most fabrics except cashmere and escorial and other luxury fabrics in their bass pricing.

I’m waiting to hear back about the re-scheduled I Sarti trips to the east coast, but if they are a no go this year, I’ll most likely do Orazio through The Armoury

I got I Sarti lined up hahaha. Gonna get these funded. Orazio is good choice as well!

 

[bdavro23]

I got I Sarti lined up hahaha. Gonna get these funded. Orazio is good choice as well!
View attachment 1478038

What are those Dugdales? They make some underrated cloth.

 

[Crispyj]

What are those Dugdales? They make some underrated cloth.

The Cavalry Twill charcoal and grey, for trousers.

 

[bdavro23]

The Cavalry Twill charcoal and grey, for trousers.

Yeah, those are great. They'll make up really nicely.

 

[comrade]

This one is unfortunate. I started going to them after you did, and from Yelp reviews it sounds like there was indeed a major round of improvements around 2016, which was when I started going to them. I had a bunch of try-on garments to work with, and the fitter took a long time to very diligently go over things. This one might depend heavily on who looks at you. I had Burgan from the DC shop, and he's probably their best.



This is actually something of theirs that I think is currently a strength. Since leaving DC and moving to Boston where they don't have a showroom, I've been to whichever shop is close to where I might be traveling for work, and have had uniformly good experiences throughout, so maybe that is something they've deliberately worked on. Their guys usually enjoy chatting with me once they find out I am a nerd about these things, and usually they mention having cut their teeth at SuitSupply or someplace similar before making their way here. Now I can't really speak for myself regarding how much input they provide, since I usually go in knowing exactly what I want, I have gone with a few friends (referral credits baby!) and they've been very helpful in guiding a new guy through the elements of a suit and making fabric and stylistic recommendations.



Yea this one was a bit jarring the first time and I definitely felt low-balled. They gave me some sales pitch about how they're fabric distributors for various manufacturers and can get a good deal, etc. but this seemed true only for the unnamed mills. I have a few VBC garments from them, and the markup beyond the base fabrics was like $400 for a 2-piece, which interestingly is about what my tailor would upcharge me for VBC fabrics that he has to buy from an agent as opposed to bolts he has in stock, so I'm kinda thinking that the savings aspect from the wholesale side of their business only applies to the off-brand stuff. Related to this is that their fabric library isn't THAT big. They have their stock fabrics and then Loro Piana, H&S, VBC, Zegna, Reda, and Scabal, which sounds like a lot but is actually kind of limited compared to the bigger players, and I remember them being lacking in the fall/winter department, the choices limited to the VBC woolens/flannels/covert book. This might be a business decision though: their target audience is a bit bro-ish, and is probably way more interested in dressing like Dickie Greenleaf than George Smiley. A VBC Revenge book probably generates much more interest with these guys than the Fox Heritage book ever would.

The canvassing thing too was a bit odd, but I at least appreciated that from their reps I was finally able to get a straight answer about construction, instead of some #menswear gibberish about how you need to have a floating whatever that molds to your body over time blah blah.

My last order from them was a VBC 3-piece, with the half canvas option, and it was something like $1100, well above the $495 they planted in my head the very first time I went to them a few years ago hahaha. But I think that's still similar to lots of other MTM outfits making a similar product and my pattern is pretty dialed in so I am going to stick with them for now.

Boston ? Have you considered The Andover Shop? Most of what they do is MTM.
They have new owners- their founder died last year. A major advantage is that it is local
so that adjustments can be made "in person", etc.

 

[bdavro23]

I'm going to a wedding today, so I thought I'd share my get up for the day. This is a Dormeuil mohair/ wool navy suit in standard two button, notch, flap configuration. Personally, I think this suit looks great and is pretty close to ideal for me in terms of silhouette. If I'm honest, I'd probably like just a touch more room in it, especially the thighs of the trousers. The suit is made to the same measurements as the grey one I posted earlier, but they fit differently. Manufacturing tolerances are around 1/4 of an inch, so theorectically, you could have as much as 1/2 an inch difference between two garments if they cut and sew on opposite sides of the line. Thats unlikely, but it could happen. The other thing that makes this suit fit a little closer than I'd like is the mohair, since it tends to be on the stiffer side.

Anyway, it isnt uncomfortable, I'd just prefer a bit more room. Pictures:

 

[heldentenor]

Incredibly sharp, @bdavro23. The back in particular looks immaculate in that somewhat unforgiving cloth.