The high end Chinese Shoe Thread

[boot_owl]

Thanks for the write up!

I was happy to learn that he is using real leather stiffeners.

I will admit, I always get a little nervous when these makers don’t say anything about the quality of the individual shoe components. I’ve been admiring Jim&Jun on Instagram for a long time now, so I know they are beautiful. But, do we know what quality the outsoles are? Do we know anything about the tannage, cut, etc., for the insoles?

From a value standpoint, these may beat out the high end English RTW brands, and at least on Instagram, they look like they could rival them in aesthetics and finishing as well. But, with the English makers you are getting shoes that are known to be made of the best components (i.e., JR or Baker oak bark tanned soles/insoles, bespoke or near bespoke quality uppers, etc.).

Any idea how these shoes may match up from this standpoint? I’m all for getting a better shoe for the money. But, I would prefer to know if I’m essentially getting an Allen Edmonds quality shoe made with Gaziano and Girling level finishing.

what English brands use bakers and bespoke clicking at the jimjun price point (or even close)? In my experience, if you’re paying a high price in Asia, you’re usually getting phenomenal value because they have more to prove and lower labour costs.

 

[MoneyWellSpent]

what English brands use bakers and bespoke clicking at the jimjun price point (or even close)? In my experience, if you’re paying a high price in Asia, you’re usually getting phenomenal value because they have more to prove and lower labour costs.

No one does. I think you misunderstood my post. I confirmed that these Chinese makers are excellent value for the money, I’m definitely not disputing that.

My question is aimed at trying to determine just how good the value is. It is apparent that the shoes are beautiful. It is also apparent that they have objective superiority by being hand-welted instead of Goodyear-welted with gemming.

However, the inseaming technique is not the only metric for value.

While a Goodyear-welted Edward Green may be using an inferior inseaming method compared with a hand-welted Chinese maker, Edward Green is using the best leathers available, and you will essentially have a shoe that is as “flawless” as you can get.

If these shoes coming from China are employing the best construction method but using the same leathers you may expect from a pair of Allen Edmonds, then that changes the value outcome in my view. And, since they don’t say what the leathers are (other than Weinheimer uppers), we are left guessing without confirmation. Allen Edmonds uses Weinheimer leathers too. I know because I’ve seen the label inside shoes I’ve torn apart.

All shoes (short of the most expensive bespoke) have compromises somewhere, either in components or construction techniques, and I like to be fully informed in order to make my own value for money assessment.

 

[clee1982]

I guess that’s a hard question to answer. They all use “good” tannery (like names you know)

for example I thought the best black leather is Weinheimer it then depends on what grade they got then how much they’re willing to throw out to make a pair.

You can IG Gordon Jim Jun he is probably happy to give you answer

ps, I wouldn’t call EG other parts flawless either though, it’s just very solid, compare to say at least AM detail alone I never find any English RTW does better than AM (style choice aside as that’s more subjective)

 

[MoneyWellSpent]

I guess that’s a hard question to answer. They all use “good” tannery (like names you know)

for example I thought the best black leather is Weinheimer it then depends on what grade they got then how much they’re willing to throw out to make a pair.

You can IG Gordon Jim Jun he is probably happy to give you answer

ps, I wouldn’t call EG other parts flawless either though, it’s just very solid, compare to say at least AM detail alone I never find any English RTW does better than AM (style choice aside as that’s more subjective)

Granted it is a hard question, and you are right that all tanneries have varying levels of product to account for. However, there is still value in the consumer knowing if the sole leather is coming from JR where they have enormously stringent QC, compared with perhaps some ordinary bends coming from some South American tannery.

Oak bark pit tanned leathers are universally acknowledged as the best for the foundational components of shoes, and I consider that a major factor in deciding value along with inseaming techniques and other hand-work in shoemaking.

I agree that you can get equally good finishing from other makers, such as AM. I put “flawless” in quotations to try and express that. No shoe is 100% flawless. The Japanese come closest. But, with MTO shoes you have less leverage in returning shoes due to flaws than what you have with the highest end English RTW shoes, whose whole business model is based on producing RTW shoes that are as close to flawless as possible. The compromise is that they are Goodyear-welted.

 

[clee1982]

Yea best to just ping him, let me try on IG

 

[boot_owl]

No one does. I think you misunderstood my post. I confirmed that these Chinese makers are excellent value for the money, I’m definitely not disputing that.

My question is aimed at trying to determine just how good the value is. It is apparent that the shoes are beautiful. It is also apparent that they have objective superiority by being hand-welted instead of Goodyear-welted with gemming.

However, the inseaming technique is not the only metric for value.

While a Goodyear-welted Edward Green may be using an inferior inseaming method compared with a hand-welted Chinese maker, Edward Green is using the best leathers available, and you will essentially have a shoe that is as “flawless” as you can get.

If these shoes coming from China are employing the best construction method but using the same leathers you may expect from a pair of Allen Edmonds, then that changes the value outcome in my view. And, since they don’t say what the leathers are (other than Weinheimer uppers), we are left guessing without confirmation. Allen Edmonds uses Weinheimer leathers too. I know because I’ve seen the label inside shoes I’ve torn apart.

All shoes (short of the most expensive bespoke) have compromises somewhere, either in components or construction techniques, and I like to be fully informed in order to make my own value for money assessment.

great points. I’ll often say that leather quality is quite a nebulous thing to quantify - things like 1 pair per hide aren’t the be all end all, but I suppose calculating a lower yield per hide gives the best indicator over time. I imagine larger operations like EG also have easier access to better grades of leather too, which can throw this standard out of whack.
Maybe the best way to do it is to buy a flawless weinheimer back and send it to a shoemaker for your exclusive use

 

[vriche]

Oct. Tenth burgundy SpTD unboxing. Truly beautiful pair of shoes especially if you have a higher instep like myself.

 

[clee1982]

Can’t wait for mine espresso brown split toe from OT!

 

[saurabh]

Can’t wait for mine espresso brown split toe from OT!

That’s great. Did you take Huang last and Premium trees this time ?

 

[clee1982]

yes sir, only downside to order now is China is on its October holiday, so going to take a 2 weeks longer I guess?

 

[clee1982]

Yea best to just ping him, let me try on IG

so I spoke to gordon jim jun on IG

my ask: "for leather sole do you guys use oak bark or JR"
his answer "The default is Italian leather bottom, you can choose Jr."

 

[saurabh]

so I spoke to gordon jim jun on IG

my ask: "for leather sole do you guys use oak bark or JR"
his answer "The default is Italian leather bottom, you can choose Jr."

That’s nice he has the stock of JR Soles.
I wanted the JR double sole tapering to single fiddleback on the SpTD Oct Tenth but they didn’t carry that and only do Single leather Italian/dainite etc.

 

[shirtingfantasy]

Some claimed that leather quality is "big problem" with Chinese makers. I think that's no longer true. From what I know, for the international projects that use Chinese makers as their backend, the (web-)storefront partners sometimes help to source leather from European tanneries; some other times, the Chinese makers order from the local dealers of the brands like Annonay / Weinheimer / Horween etc.

Recently, the bespoke maker Lu Yang (https://www.instagram.com/bespoke_shoemaker_luyang/) - who has made a pair of seamless wholecut for me via e-bespoke - has started buying from AA Crack & Sons directly. So Baker sole, Horween shell, Zonta museum... all non issue for him now.

 

[j ingevaldsson]

Some claimed that leather quality is "big problem" with Chinese makers. I think that's no longer true. From what I know, for the international projects that use Chinese makers as their backend, the (web-)storefront partners sometimes help to source leather from European tanneries; some other times, the Chinese makers order from the local dealers of the brands like Annonay / Weinheimer / Horween etc.

Recently, the bespoke maker Lu Yang (https://www.instagram.com/bespoke_shoemaker_luyang/) - who has made a pair of seamless wholecut for me via e-bespoke - has started buying from AA Crack & Sons directly. So Baker sole, Horween shell, Zonta museum... all non issue for him now.

Yes, both that and that the leather warehouses in China have started to up their game as demand has grown with much more high quality European and American hides. It’s still more of a challenge to source good leathers in China (as it is in the US) compared to if you are based in Europe, but the ways to solve it are expanding. And then there’s those like Acme who themselves have spent €80,000 on sourcing leathers from various tanneries around the world, to be able to really offer high quality stuff..

EDIT; Had added a zero too much before, it’s obviously €80k not 800 ?

 

[shirtingfantasy]

@MoneyWellSpent I hope input from @j ingevaldsson and I have partially addressed your questions. The improvement

Disclaimer: I have no particular reason to say good things about the Chinese makers' supply - I have only purchased from Medallion twice (both purchases being Meccariello shoes), only commissioned a pair from Lu Yang (which I supplied my own Zonta museum calf as he couldn't source it back then), and my collection is mainly from non-Chinese brands (the majority being Antonio Meccariello, followed by a mix of Berluti, Crockett and Jones, Corthay, John Lobb...) so technically I could be the kind of customer who has a strong bias against Chinese makers' leather choice and quality