The best Oxford shirt

[Shirtmaven]

Interesting. I don't have a lot of brands in my wardrobe but they're one of the few that performs well, but is also soft with the right heft. On one end of the spectrum I have some Drake's and BB that have a finer hand, are light, and breath well, but they wrinkle. I have the cheapest Proper Cloth and Gitman Vintage as well. These feel cheap and perform the same. Polo is right in the middle and if I could make bespoke I would actually use that cloth. You may be right though because under a scope it doesn't look special at all.

I would assume they are enzyme washed.

 

[Oswald Cornelius]

I have them. Almost everything about them is amazing except they accidentally made them with fused collars, cuffs. (Confirmed directly with Michael Bastian that it’s an error from the factory…)

Some cloths feel better in this configuration for whatever reason. The uni stripe ones have much stiffer collars. The white ones have looser collars, almost feel like there’s no fusing (but there is).

Fit is perfect (only trad cut for me) and cloth, buttons, pocket, and collar length all great. I do love them and do find the fusing softens up the more I wash them, which I’ve been doing aggressively to get that softer feeling. My main goal is to get the puckering near the edges which I find to be the most important detail of a good loved OCBD.

Thank you. I ordered four during the recent (maybe still current) sale a week or so ago. They're on the slow boat so I won't see them until Friday, but I'm anxious. I do hope they're as good as I imagine, and your review makes me hopeful.

Do you know about this 'accidental fusing?' Was it just a lot or two or are they all done that way, now?

I don't know why it's so hard for these legacy brands to a) keep making good stuff the same way they always made it and b) make it absolutely clear what is what when they deviate but use the same model/name/description. I'm looking at you BB OCBDs and you Levi's 501s....

 

[Shirtmaven]

Thank you. I ordered four during the recent (maybe still current) sale a week or so ago. They're on the slow boat so I won't see them until Friday, but I'm anxious. I do hope they're as good as I imagine, and your review makes me hopeful.

Do you know about this 'accidental fusing?' Was it just a lot or two or are they all done that way, now?

I don't know why it's so hard for these legacy brands to a) keep making good stuff the same way they always made it and b) make it absolutely clear what is what when they deviate but use the same model/name/description. I'm looking at you BB OCBDs and you Levi's 501s....

this is what happens whe you no longer control your own production and outsource to a manufacturing agent.
BB sold a 25% stake of Garland, before they went bankrupt, to TAL. a huge company that makes for everyone including BB,charles Trywit, propercloth, etc.
TAL upgraded with lots of automated machinery. sucked the soul out of the factory, and the garments.
Not sure who owns Garland at this point.

 

[vikke977]

this is what happens whe you no longer control your own production and outsource to a manufacturing agent.
BB sold a 25% stake of Garland, before they went bankrupt, to TAL. a huge company that makes for everyone including BB,charles Trywit, propercloth, etc.
TAL upgraded with lots of automated machinery. sucked the soul out of the factory, and the garments.
Not sure who owns Garland at this point.

Since you are well known around the forum as knowledgeable on shirts, and I myself have found your writings on the topic useful, I would like to ask you a question on the topic of Propercloth: IF you have handled their products, what do you think of them?

I think their value/money -ratio in their affordable/mid-range casual shirts is stellar; you can get a rather extensively altered MTM shirt (good for my neck posture, long arms and, above all, penchant for big, boxy and classic cuts almost impossible to find in my neck size as RTW) in a beefy oxford/flannel/denim for 100–150.

The details are also there: shanked buttons, decent buttonholes, SPI around 15–18 (for casual fabrics), single-needle stitching, light and malleable interlining and a quite good quality control.

I'm not shilling them. I just think I have found a great way to fill out my casual shirt collection and would like to know what a professional thinks of them i.e. I want to prevent a situation in which I stumble upon something better when I have already have 50 Propercloth shirts in my closet (speaking from previous experience haha).

 

[Shirtmaven]

Since you are well known around the forum as knowledgeable on shirts, and I myself have found your writings on the topic useful, I would like to ask you a question on the topic of Propercloth: IF you have handled their products, what do you think of them?

I think their value/money -ratio in their affordable/mid-range casual shirts is stellar; you can get a rather extensively altered MTM shirt (good for my neck posture, long arms and, above all, penchant for big, boxy and classic cuts almost impossible to find in my neck size as RTW) in a beefy oxford/flannel/denim for 100–150.

The details are also there: shanked buttons, decent buttonholes, SPI around 15–18 (for casual fabrics), single-needle stitching, light and malleable interlining and a quite good quality control.

I'm not shilling them. I just think I have found a great way to fill out my casual shirt collection and would like to know what a professional thinks of them i.e. I want to prevent a situation in which I stumble upon something better when I have already have 50 Propercloth shirts in my closet (speaking from previous experience haha).

TAL us there manufacturing partner.
They make 1 of every 6 shirts sold in the USA.
The shirt is cleanly made. They have the ability to buy fabrics at good prices since the quantity are high.

It all depends on how patient you are. Did you self measure or did someone with 4 weeks of experience measure you.
They have that great policy of of if it doesn't fit we will remake.

I have walked past the propercloth sample sales at 260 Fifth. The # of misfits is insane.
I would guess they could do minor alts and salvage the shirt. Instead they just remake

I can't compete on price.
The system has some limitations.

I do not like the bias split yoke.
Obviously, you are happy, so stick with them.

 

[vikke977]

TAL us there manufacturing partner.
They make 1 of every 6 shirts sold in the USA.
The shirt is cleanly made. They have the ability to buy fabrics at good prices since the quantity are high.

It all depends on how patient you are. Did you self measure or did someone with 4 weeks of experience measure you.
They have that great policy of of if it doesn't fit we will remake.

I have walked past the propercloth sample sales at 260 Fifth. The # of misfits is insane.
I would guess they could do minor alts and salvage the shirt. Instead they just remake

I can't compete on price.
The system has some limitations.

I do not like the bias split yoke.
Obviously, you are happy, so stick with them.

Oh absolutely, I’m real happy with them. One thing: what is it about the bias split yoke that you don’t like? Is it a funtionality thing or just the looks? Or just Propercloth/TAL’s version of it.

Their argument for it is that it allow the yoke stretch across, as the fabric has been placed so that it lies diagonally.

 

[Shirtmaven]

Oh absolutely, I’m real happy with them. One thing: what is it about the bias split yoke that you don’t like? Is it a funtionality thing or just the looks? Or just Propercloth/TAL’s version of it.

Their argument for it is that it allow the yoke stretch across, as the fabric has been placed so that it lies diagonally.

The bias split yoke does not add that much ease. To me it is an affectation like a gusset at the tail. I find the bias on plaids looks particularly annoying.
The split yoke was used to save fabric when fabric was woven only 36" wide.
The bias split yoke uses more fabric.
Computer driven pattern making programs make matching easier.
If you notice all the stripes and plaids are even. No irregular stripes, or one way patterns

 

[leadbelly2550]

Anyone have recent experience with the Brooks Bros "American-Made Oxford Cloth Button-Down Dress Shirt?" Thoughts on fit, quality, etc....?

I tried one of the 'original polo' oxford cloth shirts from Brooks and was very disappointed in the quality (frayed much more quickly than it should have, in my opinion) and thin-feeling hand of the fabric. The shirt you referenced claims to be a "reimagined" version of what I would never purchase. Brooks' quality isn't remotely what it used to be. also, i would want to make sure the shirts don't use no-iron cotton - unless you want that. i hate it.

Mercer & Sons don't cost much more than Brooks, they're made to measure, and the fabric and quality are top-notch. https://mercerandsons.com/collections/oxfords If you prefer oxford cloth button-downs on a budget, Proper Cloth is also made to measure, the fabric and construction is great (not the same level or attention to detail as Mercer, plus Proper Cloth collars don't capture the look that Mercer does). A big advantage of these made-to-measure companies is that if you want, you can get the collars, plackets and cuffs unlined/unfused from both companies. That means no stiffening inserts, and shirt that's softer, less formal, more comfortable.

 

[vikke977]

I tried one of the 'original polo' oxford cloth shirts from Brooks and was very disappointed in the quality (frayed much more quickly than it should have, in my opinion) and thin-feeling hand of the fabric. The shirt you referenced claims to be a "reimagined" version of what I would never purchase. Brooks' quality isn't remotely what it used to be. also, i would want to make sure the shirts don't use no-iron cotton - unless you want that. i hate it.

Mercer & Sons don't cost much more than Brooks, they're made to measure, and the fabric and quality are top-notch. https://mercerandsons.com/collections/oxfords If you prefer oxford cloth button-downs on a budget, Proper Cloth is also made to measure, the fabric and construction is great (not the same level or attention to detail as Mercer, plus Proper Cloth collars don't capture the look that Mercer does). A big advantage of these made-to-measure companies is that if you want, you can get the collars, plackets and cuffs unlined/unfused from both companies. That means no stiffening inserts, and shirt that's softer, less formal, more comfortable.

Your are on point with your praise of Mercer, and also Proper Cloth, but I would like to point out that Proper Cloth does not carry any unlined collars: even their softest collars have an interlining, albeit a light one – some are are unfused, though. Mercer has neither interlining nor fusing in their button downs, can't speak for the other collars.

The same goes for the soft cuffs of Proper Cloth and all of the cuffs of Mercer.

This is just my understanding of the matter based the information available through the websites. Feel free to correct me!

 

[Club Soda]

I have three proper cloth shirts I made with the soft ivy button down in their basic, least expensive Oxford cloth back in 2022 I believe. The shirts don't shrink at all and are very low maintenance. I find the lining is very light and gives just enough support that maintains the roll, whereas my old circa 2016 BB and Gitman vintage unlined collars don't roll as nicely and sit more straight. Unfortunately with this batch the collars aren't the same though. The white one is perfect. The button spacing is just right and the roll stays nice all day. The I really like the blue cloth because it's the right shade but the collar buttons sit wider and it has the spread button down look that makes the collar points look shorter and the roll more shallow. I don't wear the uni stripe that much because the stirpers are thicker than a traditional uni stripe and don't care for it.

 

[Markus123456789]

My favorites are the PS OCBDs. The colours are muted and versatile, the cloth has a great feel (slubby, substantial) and the collars are the opposite of flimsy. Downsides: Price and weight too heavy for hot continental summers, but the heavier weight makes these OCBDs so special on the other hand.

I also like the casual „washed oxford“ shirts of Stenströms that have a solid weight and can often be found on sale.

Cavour Sartoria is very different. Much lighter cloth and more formal, good under a semi-formal jacket in warmer weather. If on sale a good deal but, again, not a typical OCBD in my opinion rather leaning in the dress / twill / poplin shirt direction.

 

[sargeinaz]

I have three proper cloth shirts I made with the soft ivy button down in their basic, least expensive Oxford cloth back in 2022 I believe. The shirts don't shrink at all and are very low maintenance. I find the lining is very light and gives just enough support that maintains the roll, whereas my old circa 2016 BB and Gitman vintage unlined collars don't roll as nicely and sit more straight. Unfortunately with this batch the collars aren't the same though. The white one is perfect. The button spacing is just right and the roll stays nice all day. The I really like the blue cloth because it's the right shade but the collar buttons sit wider and it has the spread button down look that makes the collar points look shorter and the roll more shallow. I don't wear the uni stripe that much because the stirpers are thicker than a traditional uni stripe and don't care for it.

That’s a bummer. Was it the soft ivy BD again? I am debating a PC Oxford, but the soft Roma BD

 

[Club Soda]

That’s a bummer. Was it the soft ivy BD again? I am debating a PC Oxford, but the soft Roma BD

I absolutely recommend PC for an OCBD, I'm just overly picky. I wear a suit every working day and can never have enough white shirts so I was actually considering trying the soft Roma BD too.

QC and consistency are quite high, the range of styles of collars, buttons, shirts styles that PC offers is exceptional, and The fabric selection is very nice.

They may be the best value MTO service as you can make pretty much anything you want for less than $200, less than $160-175 in some cases which is a tremendous value. I like Gitman Vintage for example, but 220 is a lot for the product, I had a great experience with Kamakura very recently too and those are a great make starting at $160.