The best Oxford shirt

[TimothyF]

The Ametora's fabric is relatively thin with a slight sheen, whereas my Vintage Ivy oxfords are thicker, softer and have a more matte texture. I've only washed the Ametora twice so the attributes may change over time. The thin fabric can make the collar feel quite floppy.

Interestingly, the buttons on the Ametora are spaced further apart (10cm instead of 8.5cm) which makes it easier to tuck in depending on your trousers. The MOP buttons are noticeably nicer in colour, texture and shape than the ones on my Vintage Ivy shirts.

I have a 40" chest, 30" waist and wear the size 15. Surprisingly easy to style with high waisted trousers if you can get the proportions to work.

The vintage ivy oxford is not the thickest to begin with. Does this mean Ametora is more like pinpoint oxford? I notice usually with these supposedly "luxurious" cottons they tend to give us less of it!

The farther apart button spacing is the intended feature, which matches that of old Brooks Brothers shirts from the 60s, 70s, and 80s (I just confirmed this measurement). And presumably the Mercer and Sons shirts, which I don't own

 

[single_origin]

Any suggestions for top makers that make extra slim fit Oxfords? I know of Proper Cloth and Finamore, any others?

 

[ComradeFP]

The vintage ivy oxford is not the thickest to begin with. Does this mean Ametora is more like pinpoint oxford? I notice usually with these supposedly "luxurious" cottons they tend to give us less of it!

The farther apart button spacing is the intended feature, which matches that of old Brooks Brothers shirts from the 60s, 70s, and 80s (I just confirmed this measurement). And presumably the Mercer and Sons shirts, which I don't own

I am wearing one (Ametora) as I type this. I don't think you'd ever confuse the fabric with pinpoint - if nothing else, the weave is still very much a traditional oxford weave. The Ametora fabric may feel "thinner than it is" because it does have a certain 'floppiness' to it, as noted by others.

Of all shirts I have worn over the course of my life, the Ametora shirts are most similar to vintage Brooks Brothers - fabric, lining, vibe/feel, etc. If anything, the buttons on the Ametora are a bit nicer.

 

[Club Soda]

Any suggestions for top makers that make extra slim fit Oxfords? I know of Proper Cloth and Finamore, any others?

Thom Browne are very slim and darted.

 

[multiccy-csa]

Returning to my original question, I've tried quite a few by Drakes, Anglo Italian and PS, and though good (superior to, say, Polo or Gitman) none are quite right.
Drake's are good, and fit my slim/long arm frame, and many here (and elsewhere) have complimented the cloth, but honestly i find it a little underwhelming. Firstly, I find it 'fuzzy', almost brushed, with a nap to it, quite unlike any other. Under a loupe, you can clearly see it (see attached, vs Anglo Italian).





I find the collar roll starts off great, but quickly loses shape/structure- although perhaps it's just my ironing.
I also find the breastpocket made annoyingly small/useless by a threaded stitch the divides it into a pen pocket and a separate larger section, though not large enough for phone or wallet, leaving it pretty much useless. I cut out the thread to be able to use it, though it looks messy as a result.

Meanwhile Anglo Italian cloth is nicer, but again the collar roll is unsatisfactory. It's much bigger and louder, but is difficult to keep looking right, and often sits too square to the collar, removing any roll.

I also find the fold of the collar develops a ruffle that is impossible to iron out, and wears scruffily...see below. (Anyone else find this?)



I generally find with most OCBDs I've tried the parts that are meant to be floppy go stiff and the parts that are meant to be stiff go floppy..

I'd like to try some genuine vintage BBs, but difficult to get here in the UK.
Proper Cloth? Kamikura?
How hard can it be to get that OCBD?

Or perhaps i just need to learn how to iron properly..

 

[vikke977]

Returning to my original question, I've tried quite a few by Drakes, Anglo Italian and PS, and though good (superior to, say, Polo or Gitman) none are quite right.
Drake's are good, and fit my slim/long arm frame, and many here (and elsewhere) have complimented the cloth, but honestly i find it a little underwhelming. Firstly, I find it 'fuzzy', almost brushed, with a nap to it, quite unlike any other. Under a loupe, you can clearly see it (see attached, vs Anglo Italian).
View attachment 2225487

View attachment 2225489
View attachment 2225491 View attachment 2225493

I find the collar roll starts off great, but quickly loses shape/structure- although perhaps it's just my ironing.
I also find the breastpocket made annoyingly small/useless by a threaded stitch the divides it into a pen pocket and a separate larger section, though not large enough for phone or wallet, leaving it pretty much useless. I cut out the thread to be able to use it, though it looks messy as a result.

Meanwhile Anglo Italian cloth is nicer, but again the collar roll is unsatisfactory. It's much bigger and louder, but is difficult to keep looking right, and often sits too square to the collar, removing any roll.
View attachment 2225495 View attachment 2225499
View attachment 2225485
I also find the fold of the collar develops a ruffle that is impossible to iron out, and wears scruffily...see below.
View attachment 2225483

I generally find with most OCBDs I've tried the parts that are meant to be floppy go stiff and the parts that are meant to be stiff go floppy..

I'd like to try some genuine vintage BBs, but difficult to get here in the UK.
Proper Cloth? Kamikura?
How hard can it be to get that OCBD?

Or perhaps i just need to iron properly..

I would recommend giving Proper Cloth a try.

For a long time I liked Drake´s OCBD for its satisfactory level of make and adherence to the classic details. What made me move away from them were the rather short sleeves – short for my long arms, that is. The cloth was, again, satisfactory, but nothing special: it was rather thin and never quite softened despite me using the shirts to the ground. Their prices have also in the recent years become quite ridiculous for what is essentially a fully machine-made garment.

I tried some alternatives, ranging from 100Hands RTW to mid-level MTM and RTW, which included Kamakura. The 100Hands one was obviously incredibly well made, but there is no need for 5+ hand sewn details on a OCBD – a shirt that has traditionally been fully machine-made – and I could only find dressier OCBDs, which lacked the box pleat, pocket etc. Kamakura's main-line OCBD was nothing special: flimsy fabric and badly attached river shell buttons. Can't speak for the Vintage Ivy and Ametora shirts.

However, my biggest gripe throughout this ordeal remained fit: in addition to longer sleeves I was now looking for a truly full cut shirt, think old BB.

Enter Proper Cloth. Using their generous remake policy I quickly nailed the slouchy fit, lengthened the sleeves and adjusted for my slightly bad posture. Combining the great fit with the required details, like a good collar and surprisingly good fabric – the cheapest one, at that – allowed me to stop looking. The level of make should be enough for anyone looking for a casual shirt: shanked buttons, single needle stitching with a SPI tight enough for a casual shirt, and surprisingly good quality control.

For around a 100 a pop it's really worth a try. If you are going for the classic look, you should pick the soft ivy button down, soft front placket, soft long button cuff, a pocket of your choosing (I have found the vintage ivy – surprise, I know haha – rounded pocket to be the best) and the box pleat, either with our without the locker loop. While running the risk of giving my post a tinge of vested interest, here is a $20 referral link that you are free to use: https://propercloth.com/i/x1h94rmms.

 

[comrade]

I would recommend giving Proper Cloth a try.

For a long time I liked Drake´s OCBD for its satisfactory level of make and adherence to the classic details. What made me move away from them were the rather short sleeves – short for my long arms, that is. The cloth was, again, satisfactory, but nothing special: it was rather thin and never quite softened despite me using the shirts to the ground. Their prices have also in the recent years become quite ridiculous for what is essentially a fully machine-made garment.

I tried some alternatives, ranging from 100Hands RTW to mid-level MTM and RTW, which included Kamakura. The 100Hands one was obviously incredibly well made, but there is no need for 5+ hand sewn details on a OCBD – a shirt that has traditionally been fully machine-made – and I could only find dressier OCBDs, which lacked the box pleat, pocket etc. Kamakura's main-line OCBD was nothing special: flimsy fabric and badly attached river shell buttons. Can't speak for the Vintage Ivy and Ametora shirts.

However, my biggest gripe throughout this ordeal remained fit: in addition to longer sleeves I was now looking for a truly full cut shirt, think old BB.

Enter Proper Cloth. Using their generous remake policy I quickly nailed the slouchy fit, lengthened the sleeves and adjusted for my slightly bad posture. Combining the great fit with the required details, like a good collar and surprisingly good fabric – the cheapest one, at that – allowed me to stop looking. The level of make should be enough for anyone looking for a casual shirt: shanked buttons, single needle stitching with a SPI tight enough for a casual shirt, and surprisingly good quality control.

For around a 100 a pop it's really worth a try. If you are going for the classic look, you should pick the soft ivy button down, soft front placket, soft long button cuff, a pocket of your choosing (I have found the vintage ivy – surprise, I know haha – rounded pocket to be the best) and the box pleat, either with our without the locker loop. While running the risk of giving my post a tinge of vested interest, here is a $20 referral link that you are free to use: https://propercloth.com/i/x1h94rmms.

Since you are in the UK you might check out Hilditch and Key. I wear oxfords, but not button downs. Their Royal Oxford, which is not always
available every season, is heavy and has definite texture. They offer button downs, but from the photos do not have the classical Ivy collar roll. Their
sale is currently underway. They also do bespoke.

 

[Steve Smith]

Thom Browne are very slim and darted.

Are the current shirts darted? I have some new old stock and they all have rear side pleats.

 

[multiccy-csa]

I would recommend giving Proper Cloth a try.

For a long time I liked Drake´s OCBD for its satisfactory level of make and adherence to the classic details. What made me move away from them were the rather short sleeves – short for my long arms, that is. The cloth was, again, satisfactory, but nothing special: it was rather thin and never quite softened despite me using the shirts to the ground. Their prices have also in the recent years become quite ridiculous for what is essentially a fully machine-made garment.

I tried some alternatives, ranging from 100Hands RTW to mid-level MTM and RTW, which included Kamakura. The 100Hands one was obviously incredibly well made, but there is no need for 5+ hand sewn details on a OCBD – a shirt that has traditionally been fully machine-made – and I could only find dressier OCBDs, which lacked the box pleat, pocket etc. Kamakura's main-line OCBD was nothing special: flimsy fabric and badly attached river shell buttons. Can't speak for the Vintage Ivy and Ametora shirts.

However, my biggest gripe throughout this ordeal remained fit: in addition to longer sleeves I was now looking for a truly full cut shirt, think old BB.

Enter Proper Cloth. Using their generous remake policy I quickly nailed the slouchy fit, lengthened the sleeves and adjusted for my slightly bad posture. Combining the great fit with the required details, like a good collar and surprisingly good fabric – the cheapest one, at that – allowed me to stop looking. The level of make should be enough for anyone looking for a casual shirt: shanked buttons, single needle stitching with a SPI tight enough for a casual shirt, and surprisingly good quality control.

For around a 100 a pop it's really worth a try. If you are going for the classic look, you should pick the soft ivy button down, soft front placket, soft long button cuff, a pocket of your choosing (I have found the vintage ivy – surprise, I know haha – rounded pocket to be the best) and the box pleat, either with our without the locker loop. While running the risk of giving my post a tinge of vested interest, here is a $20 referral link that you are free to use: https://propercloth.com/i/x1h94rmms.

Thanks vm for this. I've heard PC mentioned a few times, but do they have a way to engage with UK-based buyers? Or we have to deal with importing from outside the UK? Their website suggests the latter, making returning a real pain.

 

[vikke977]

Thanks vm for this. I've heard PC mentioned a few times, but do they have a way to engage with UK-based buyers? Or we have to deal with importing from outside the UK? Their website suggests the latter, making returning a real pain.

You can shop in GBP, which is nice. Standard UK VAT (20%) would be incurred, yes. You will not get this sum back when returning a shirt. The good thing is that they give free return labels.

If you do the complimentary remake then the delivery of the replacement shirt is totally free of charge, but you would have to pay the VAT again, but this is the same for customers all over the world (except that they woulder get the VAT included at checkout instead of paying HMRC)

For orders under £135 (including shipping) there is no duty. Most casual shirts are below this, even when considering shipping. Above the £135 threshold a 9.6% duty is applied.

As long as you keep your first order below one shirt/£135 (which would be advisable for the first order) then the only negative for UK-based customers, compared to the US or EU, is the non-refundable VAT when returning the shirt. This should really not be an issue as I only had to do one remake to nail my fit and have not returned anything since.

 

[Freshnewduds23]

On the previous topic of untucked OCBDs, where do we think OCBDs should sit when untucked, what's the proper length?

I personally think they should always be tucked, unless if worn with shorts, but where's that middle point where they're long enough to be worn tucked and not too long to be worn untucked, how far below/around the butt?

What do you guys think?

 

[comrade]

On the previous topic of untucked OCBDs, where do we think OCBDs should sit when untucked, what's the proper length?

I personally think they should always be tucked, unless if worn with shorts, but where's that middle point where they're long enough to be worn tucked and not too long to be worn untucked, how far below/around the butt?

What do you guys think?

To me, untucked equals "dork". But like so many styles that emerged from the uncool margins
of society it has become mainstream. A few generations ago the only shirts that were meant to be
untucked were sport shirts, like Aloha shirts and Guayabera shirts, etc..

 

[Trevallon]

On the previous topic of untucked OCBDs, where do we think OCBDs should sit when untucked, what's the proper length?

I personally think they should always be tucked, unless if worn with shorts, but where's that middle point where they're long enough to be worn tucked and not too long to be worn untucked, how far below/around the butt?

What do you guys think?

What do YOU like?

I think the whole thing is totally subjective. Some people look great in an untucked OCBD, some don't. Some body types are flattered by this look, some are not.

I agree, the untucked shirt looks good with shorts. But if you wear 5" shorts with an Oxford that covers the shorts and makes you look like your just wearing the shirt, it is off.

As to length, again, that is totally dependend on what you are wearing with it. There is no (at least to my mind) perfect "butt or below the butt" ratio one can (or should!) adhere to.

 

[Shirtmaven]

On the previous topic of untucked OCBDs, where do we think OCBDs should sit when untucked, what's the proper length?

I personally think they should always be tucked, unless if worn with shorts, but where's that middle point where they're long enough to be worn tucked and not too long to be worn untucked, how far below/around the butt?

What do you guys think?

If strictly untucked, the midway point of the pants zipper is a good spot.
If the shirt has a deep saddle. The sides of the shirt then the tail can be a but longer.
Old school button down shirts had shirt tails that were quite long.

 

[Oswald Cornelius]

Anyone have recent experience with the Brooks Bros "American-Made Oxford Cloth Button-Down Dress Shirt?" Thoughts on fit, quality, etc....?