The Bespoke Shoes Thread

[Son Of Saphir]

The point is that some makers treat clients differently depending on their status. This happens in London and in Naples and across industries. Nothing new and this is a more common way of doing business than the opposite.

If you are an average customer (like I am in most things I buy) you'd rather go to an honest maker who treats everyone equal. They also exist.

some common sense here.
George is into image and wants to be around important people who are beautiful,
and he does not cover it up very well.
Time to face reality.
He looks down on many,
and he drunk posts putting down people who are "not ready" and likely not beautiful.
Why are men surprised and upset by this.
What do people expect,
not everyone can get good service and product.
They need to go through many people to find the `good ones'.
The good ones = people with deep pockets.
Need trunk shows to find the good ones.
They are a society shoemaker,
so they don't need common people,
they have an image to uphold.
It seem like too many people order from Cleverley that probably should not.
Know your place.
Do not fight it.
Find another shoe maker who will accept you for you.
Some snobby places won't accept certain types of men,
so don't go there.
Take the hint and learn from it.
Igents think they can do whatever they want,
but they can't.
Society types have ways of dealing with people who are `not ready' or do not fit the mold.


Me have had conversations with George,
he made his feelings very clear on how he feels about men who post here,
they are not his type of people,
he does not want them in his life,
they are not a good image for Cleverley.
He wants to be around people he respects,
so do not be surpised if he treats you poorly,
he does not care,
you are nobody to him.
Now you know why it is like it is.
A glimpse into the other side.
You shall be told nothing else because it is not your business to know,so go about your business igents,
and know your place.

 

[aristoi bcn]

The day we see Nicholas with her wife pictured in a editorial from The Rake we will know that we are fucked.

 

[clee1982]

Just avoid GC at all cost or buy their RTW on deep discounts either way works for me

 

[clee1982]

The point is that some makers treat clients differently depending on their status. This happens in London and in Naples and across industries. Nothing new and this is a more common way of doing business than the opposite.

If you are an average customer (like I am in most things I buy) you'd rather go to an honest maker who treats everyone equal. They also exist.

I do see that being true unfortunately, though the gap is usually not as big as this case (oh you order bespoke let me deliver you some worse than Carmina crocodile skin, hum how about fit worse than an AE sales guy achieve). It’s almost beyond not care, more like purposely f around.

 

[acapaca]

I used to hold the view that you have to have the cutter or lastmaker at your fitting. I've only used two bespoke shoemakers (true bespoke, not the remote stuff), so my experience is limited. But with tailoring, I've found that a lot depends. I've had bad experiences with the cutter present; I've had good experiences with only the fitter present.

The most I can say is that people are better off leaving themselves in the hands of the person they're working with.

I'm interested in hearing more about this. I don't have much understanding at all about what it is that makes one cutter better than another, but I do believe that such a phenomenon must exist. If it does, then when a cutter does a job well, on what is he basing the decisions he makes? I guess I've always been under the impression that it has to do with things he sees with his own eyes, or measurements he knows exactly where to take. If he can be successful without being there, is it because of the productive relationship he has with his fitters, or is it because it's ultimately not so important to see and feel with his own eyes and hands?

 

[dieworkwear]

some common sense here.
George is into image and wants to be around important people who are beautiful,
and he does not cover it up very well.
Time to face reality.
He looks down on many,
and he drunk posts putting down people who are "not ready" and likely not beautiful.
Why are men surprised and upset by this.
What do people expect,
not everyone can get good service and product.
They need to go through many people to find the `good ones'.
The good ones = people with deep pockets.
Need trunk shows to find the good ones.
They are a society shoemaker,
so they don't need common people,
they have an image to uphold.
It seem like too many people order from Cleverley that probably should not.
Know your place.
Do not fight it.
Find another shoe maker who will accept you for you.
Some snobby places won't accept certain types of men,
so don't go there.
Take the hint and learn from it.
Igents think they can do whatever they want,
but they can't.
Society types have ways of dealing with people who are `not ready' or do not fit the mold.


Me have had conversations with George,
he made his feelings very clear on how he feels about men who post here,
they are not his type of people,
he does not want them in his life,
they are not a good image for Cleverley.
He wants to be around people he respects,
so do not be surpised if he treats you poorly,
he does not care,
you are nobody to him.
Now you know why it is like it is.
A glimpse into the other side.
You shall be told nothing else because it is not your business to know,so go about your business igents,
and know your place.

A friend of mine is a very normal lawyer, and while he ordered his shoes something like ten years ago, his shoes are fine. He spent less money than Shack. I have two other friends who ordered their shoes thirty years ago and their shoes are great. One forum member on here posted a pair of shoes a few years ago that looked fine. None of these are high society people.

Yet, many others received terrible shoes. Who knows if they're delivering good products to "high society people?" My guess is that many customers don't even know they have bad shoes, or they're given a runaround when asked. When Kirby's shoes rocked back and forth, he was told it was because of some twisted last to make him look more elegant.

I think the simple answer is that some companies are bad.

Me have had conversations with George,
he made his feelings very clear on how he feels about men who post here,
they are not his type of people,
he does not want them in his life,

I think it's true that Junior doesn't look fondly on forum members or even internet guys who are into shoes. But you know how to mark yourself as such a person? By doing stuff like this:

Cleverley made my shoe wrong fit at first,
me set george straight and insist Teemu fly to trunk show next time,
me talk to Teemu and went over 20 things to get fit exactly.
we have good meeting of mind (most important).
also had last specially designed to accommodate foot change in day so foot slide down shoe without making it longer or less elegant,
it special trick.
Asked for curve of shoe on outside to be slightly held back to end of shoe more to accommodate foot changes.
It worked perfectly!
Teemu know what me wanted,
we perfected everything because we had meeting of mind down to finest details.
Me study some basic lasting and shoemaking so Teemu and me could have these conversations.

 

[dieworkwear]

I'm interested in hearing more about this. I don't have much understanding at all about what it is that makes one cutter better than another, but I do believe that such a phenomenon must exist. If it does, then when a cutter does a job well, on what is he basing the decisions he makes? I guess I've always been under the impression that it has to do with things he sees with his own eyes, or measurements he knows exactly where to take. If he can be successful without being there, is it because of the productive relationship he has with his fitters, or is it because it's ultimately not so important to see and feel with his own eyes and hands?

I don't know. For a long time, I avoided trunk shows where the cutter isn't present. Just seemed like a bad idea to me, since the cutter is the person who's cutting your pattern. Such trunk shows usually involve the person taking notes and taking photos, which they hand off to the cutter. I used a company once that did this, and the results were bad, so I avoided fitter-only trunk shows.

Then I had pants locally made by a person who was just the fitter. The cutter is on-site, but he didn't see me (although, on two occasions, we passed by each other at the shop and exchanged pleasantries). Those pants fit me better than any of the British or Italian companies I've used (including ones where the cutter was present). So then I gave up on that rule.

Perhaps shoes are different and you ought to have the lastmaker there. I've only tried two companies, so I can't say.

I don't have much interest in trying a new shoemaker, but if I did, I would use a small, lastmaker-run shop, not a big company. I just think they're more interesting. Feel the same way about tailoring houses now. After trying one big SR firm and being let down by the product, I don't have much desire to try another big name.

Regarding what makes one cutter better than the other, I think it's like any other craftperson or service provider. Some people are better at their job, but even good people have bad days -- hairdressers, copywriters, graphic designers, etc. But with bespoke, you have a chain of people. So the cutter cuts your pattern, and then the bundle of cloth gets sent to a maker (coatmaker or trousermaker). Somewhere at the end, there's a finisher who makes things like the buttonholes. The cutter is the most important person in this chain because they're cutting the pattern and, ostensibly, fitting you. I've heard from some cutters that it's very hard to find coatmakers and trousermakers these days, depending on where you're based. So perhaps with the shrinking talent pool, there's more inconsistent product.

 

[laufer]

@shackletonian
I am sorry to hear about your troubles. I had bespoke shoes done several times, and only once they turned out OK.
I feel your pain. You wanted something unique and personal. The maker would not deliver. Use all legal and necessary means to your disposal to obtain a satisfactory resolution. If GJC is going to nitpick, you can do that too.

For those interested in pursuing bespoke made shoes, I would recommend either Antonio Meccariello or Hiro Yanagimachi; please see this quoted post below on why I recommend these two makers.

I did MTM with Hiro Yanagimachi with the intention of doing Bespoke. He said there wouldn't be a better fit than the one I had received. He only would have been able to eliminate 1 or 1. 5 mm of excess leather (which is damn near nothing), yet I would have to pay $1k more. I decided to keep the $1k ?.
TBF, AM told me the same thing, but I just decided to opt for the Bespoke and "downgrade" to Arg.

 

[bjhofkin]

Son of Saphir as a young man:

No, Son of Saphir speaks English. He's from Australia.

He used to post here under a different username ....

 

[bdavro23]

some common sense here.
George is into image and wants to be around important people who are beautiful,
and he does not cover it up very well.
Time to face reality.
He looks down on many,
and he drunk posts putting down people who are "not ready" and likely not beautiful.
Why are men surprised and upset by this.
What do people expect,
not everyone can get good service and product.
They need to go through many people to find the `good ones'.
The good ones = people with deep pockets.
Need trunk shows to find the good ones.
They are a society shoemaker,
so they don't need common people,
they have an image to uphold.
It seem like too many people order from Cleverley that probably should not.
Know your place.
Do not fight it.
Find another shoe maker who will accept you for you.
Some snobby places won't accept certain types of men,
so don't go there.
Take the hint and learn from it.
Igents think they can do whatever they want,
but they can't.
Society types have ways of dealing with people who are `not ready' or do not fit the mold.


Me have had conversations with George,
he made his feelings very clear on how he feels about men who post here,
they are not his type of people,
he does not want them in his life,
they are not a good image for Cleverley.
He wants to be around people he respects,
so do not be surpised if he treats you poorly,
he does not care,
you are nobody to him.
Now you know why it is like it is.
A glimpse into the other side.
You shall be told nothing else because it is not your business to know,so go about your business igents,
and know your place.

I have to imagine that its exhausting to write like this. I mean, you do you, but christ this is a commitment...

 

[clee1982]

AM is definitely on my list, but apparently we at North America is ordering no where near what China does, so there is that...

 

[Texasmade]

I have to imagine that its exhausting to write like this. I mean, you do you, but christ this is a commitment...

It’s also exhausting as **** to read. Most of the time I just read every other line when Son of Saphir writes because it’s too much.

 

[Leocurrently]

It’s also exhausting as **** to read. Most of the time I just read every other line when Son of Saphir writes because it’s too much.

May I just have a basic summary with emojis plz k thanx

 

[Texasmade]

May I just have a basic summary with emojis plz k thanx

:foo:

 

[BColl_Has_Too_Many_Shoes]

@shackletonian
I am sorry to hear about your troubles. I had bespoke shoes done several times, and only once they turned out OK.
I feel your pain. You wanted something unique and personal. The maker would not deliver. Use all legal and necessary means to your disposal to obtain a satisfactory resolution. If GJC is going to nitpick, you can do that too.

For those interested in pursuing bespoke made shoes, I would recommend either Antonio Meccariello or Hiro Yanagimachi; please see this quoted post below on why I recommend these two makers.

Had to read a few pages back to orient myself with what has transpired on the thread.

First off, it is beyond disappointing to hear about @shackletonian's experience. I was one of the few, apparently, who had experienced a successful commission (two in fact) with Cleverley. It bears mentioning that those makeups occurred about 12 to 13 years ago.

Then, Dominic Casey was with Cleverley, and he was the one I met all those years ago. Never had the pleasure of meeting Jr., but (as mentioned previously à few pages back) I had met Sr. Consequently, I imagine my experience was or would be different than those commissioning currently.

As @laufer, posted I had a phenomenal experience with both AM & HY. HY, in particular, provided me with so much confidence that the MTM would go flawlessly. Of course, we had to make modifications to the existing fitting. But, he also traced my feet & took my measurements like a regular Bespoke commission. He had pre-existing shoes as well (this was in Japan). I was charged a larger amount than usual, but I expected that since I opted for the construction feature/details he provides for his Bespoke offerings.

When I met him for a second commission here in NY, all I did was provided details through email and that was it.

I'd add that what I appreciated more than anything from my interaction with HY was the transparency and candor. I knew everything that went into my shoes, the explanations surrounding the makeup, the reasonings behind the details, why certain configurations would/wouldn't work, and, of course, how he could save me money while providing me the fit I was after.

I didn't have to use exclusive language or hand signals. All I had to do was show up and talk about what I expected from the exchange. Easy peasy.