Shoemaking Techniques and Traditions--"...these foolish things..."

[chogall]

Quote:
To summarize, you enjoy "learning about bespoke shoemaking", but you cannot understand or appreciate "learning about bespoke shoemaking" because you are not a master of "learning about bespoke shoemaking".

Quote:

You're right.

At the same time, it does take someone who has the ability to recognize craftsmanship when they see it--independent of ill-informed internet postings and visits to factories. Or be a curious and open-minded listener. Neither of which applies in the above instance.

Just as it takes someone who has the ability to follow a train of thought and recognize and use logic, to find fault in someone else's.

Sorry, I am not a master bespoke shoemaker so I cannot recognize craftsmanship. I also don't play basketball professionally so I cannot recognize the greatness of Michael Jordan or Stephen Curry. I am not a master violinist, so I cannot recognize the greatness of Paganini.

However, I am an inspiring troll so I immediately recognized your master trolling effort on derailing the discussion away from talking about EB/Vass/Meermin's actual issues. And now you will deflect answering questions about other hand sewn welted shoemaker's quality because you refuse to comment about other's work. Well played.

Again, Enzo Bonafe/Vass/Meermin Linea Maestro are in the manufacturing business, they have to deploy different methods to maintain margin. Not magic.

 

[DWFII]



Not sure I agree. If only a craftsman's eye can recognize or appreciate a given craft, there's probably very very few buyers.

Well, despite what some would have you believe, I've never said that. I discuss and agree with many here who have never made a pair of shoes.

The big difference--the one I have trouble with (as exemplified by people like chogal)--is the arrogance that is invariably the result of wilful ignorance. It, all by itself, precludes any real appreciation of anything but that which supports and justifies its own smug existence. Simply because there is no objectivity. No ability to let go of defensiveness and ego, step outside of oneself and be analytical...even self-critical.

That said, there is a level of appreciation that only a maker...only a craftsman (of any sort)...brings to the game. That cannot be trumped or gainsayed. Listening (if only metaphorically) to people who have that experience can sometimes bring you closer and, depending on how hard and respectfully you listen, even give you insights and appreciation that few others...except the craftsman...are privy to.

But again, it's the stolen glory of the Private Uphams of the world. You can't know or appreciate combat until you've actually, personally, been in it.

As for "few buyers" you're right. That's why...for some...the economics trump the quality. Why, for some, speed or accessibility are most important. Why, as a general rule and a cultural blight, the factory mentality dominates all our lives and promises to do so even to the point where everything we can acquires is disposable ticky-tacky.

And most people are, and will be, perfectly happy with that.

--

 

[DWFII]



Sorry, I am not a master bespoke shoemaker so I cannot recognize craftsmanship. I also don't play basketball professionally so I cannot recognize the greatness of Michael Jordan or Stephen Curry.  I am not a master violinist, so I cannot recognize the greatness of Paganini.

However, I am an inspiring troll so I immediately recognized your master trolling effort on derailing the discussion away from talking about EB/Vass/Meermin's actual issues. And now you will deflect answering questions about other hand sewn welted shoemaker's quality because you refuse to comment about other's work. Well played.

Again, Enzo Bonafe/Vass/Meermin Linea Maestro are in the manufacturing business, they have to deploy different methods to maintain margin. Not magic.

That's right...you're none of those things. You have none of the humility you would need to sympathize, empathize or understand any of it.

You can't recognize craftsmanship or greatness because you cannot lower yourself to sit silently at anyone else's feet and learn. Or acknowledge your own ignorance.

And you're right again when you say you're an aspiring troll ("inspiring" ain't in it). But you should be a happy little troll, because you've long since (and with sustained practice) easily achieved your aspirations.

What you are...IMO...is a mess. If only because this discussion is not...was not...ever about EB or Vass or Meermin. You brought them into this discussion. No one else. And even now no one else is interested in discussing...or dissing...them.

Just you.

--

 

[chogall]

That's right...you're none of those things. And have none of the humility you would need to sympathize, empathize or understand any of it. You're right again when you day you're an aspiring troll but you should be happy you've easily achieved your aspirations. You can't recognize craftsmanship or greatness because you cannot lower yourself to sit silently at anyone else's feet and learn. Or acknowledge your own ignorance.

What you are...IMO...is a mess. If only because this discussion is not...was not...ever about EB or Vass or Meermin. You brought them into this discussion. No one else. And even now no one else is interested in discussing...or dissing...them.

Just you.

Thanks for putting words in my mouth but no thanks. I didn't bring EB into the discussion. Zapasman brought it up, and you crit hit this thread with a wall of text rant talking about best practices while dodging the question shoemaking economics as if economics is never a concern with shoemakers!

Hell, if economics is not a concern, you should probably raise grass fed calves like a century ago, skin and tan them, stitch outsoles at 60spi, and stop complaining about how leathers today is lower quality than the leathers of yore.

I do not appreciate you speaking for me.

 

[bdavro23]

Thanks for putting words in my mouth but no thanks. I didn't bring EB into the discussion. Zapasman brought it up, and you crit hit this thread with a wall of text rant talking about best practices while dodging the question shoemaking economics as if economics is never a concern with shoemakers!

Hell, if economics is not a concern, you should probably raise grass fed calves like a century ago, skin and tan them, stitch outsoles at 60spi, and stop complaining about how leathers today is lower quality than the leathers of yore.

I do not appreciate you speaking for me.

Then you should probably stop talking for others and attributing things to them which they did not say.

 

[DWFII]



I didn't bring EB into the discussion.  Zapasman brought it up,
I do not appreciate you speaking for me.

Actually...as with most of what you post...that too is incorrect. Zapasman never once mentioned the maker. Nor did I. It was never relevant.

Then you should probably stop talking for others and attributing things to them which they did not say.

 

[DWFII]



and you crit hit this thread with a wall of text rant talking about best practices while dodging the question shoemaking economics as if economics is never a concern with shoemakers! 

I might add...since you don't like the way I say things, nevermind what I'm saying (which by all available evidence you don't pay any attention to anyway)...that my long post which you took umbrage to, was a respectful response to someone who has always treated me with respect. It takes respect to respond at length to someone.It takes time. It takes energy.

All very different from the dismissive grunts that some find comfort in.

It had nothing to do with you (although I am sure that comes as both a surprise and somewhat of an insult) ...if you don't like it, "just say no"--put me on your ignore list.

Or find some other bridge to crawl under.

 

[chogall]

Actually...as with most of what you post...that too is incorrect. Zapasman never once mentioned the maker. Nor did I. It was never relevant.

Oh really? First you speak for me. Now you are smearing and flat out losing memories of what you've said. Here's some quotes all from this current page just to remind you what you've wrote and questions you've dodged.

Hi DW,

That is what I always understood: good material and expertise in the execution of the technique equal to a great shoe. Moreover, if a feather is not skived in the insole (no holdfast & no feather), the hollow to fill with any kind of material in the shoe will be higher. I do not consider this to be a problem either.


From your words I understand that stitching aloft has being the original technique for HW shoes. So when was the holdfast/feather technique introduce in the Trade?


DW, FYI some HW shoemakers are using this technique currently; Enzo Bonafe (Ita), Meermin (Spain), Sagara (Indonesia)....Maybe they never heard about the holdfast/feather technique, want to save time or their insoles are a bit thin. I really do not know but I think all of them make really good shoes with this technique.
What it would be your main concerns if you had to make a stiching aloft shoe for me today with the same insoles you are using now?.

Cheers


PS.-I really wish that could happen.

You ask me?. I do not think so, but I am not a shoemaker so I am not qualify to answer you. Furthemore, I do not have EB shoes yet to give you any opinion.

The context is critical. What kind of forum is this? What is its avowed purpose? What is the focus of this thread?

Indeed, what is the point of discussion at all, if all we do is natter about things we know nothing about? I'm all for mindless chit chat...in venues where mindless chit chat is the order of the day and where it does no harm. But I think...I hope...StyleForum is about more than mindless chit chat. Mostly. Ostensibly.

Human beings make comparisons in order to survive...every minute of every day. The ability to accurately and wisely judge situations can mean the difference between life and death...even in the contemporary world. That ability--that tendency to compare and judge--filters down and colours all of our behaviour.

Several points: What distinguishes a $200.00 shoe from a $1000.00 shoe if what you can't see or know about makes no difference? The correct answer is "nothing."

What is the point of buying a $1000.00 shoe if you don't know...and don't want to know...the difference? Is it all for show? For the prestige? If that's the case, why not wear the box--everyone will know you bought expensive brand names.

So yes, comparisons (esp. informed comparisons) are fair...they are nothing less than objective analysis. The alternative is to allow the maker to do those comparisons and simple-mindedly accept their word that they've chosen the best leather or the best techniques.

What is the point of talking about economics in a thread or forum that ostensibly is focused on quality? If you want to talk about economics...there is a concept that many people on this forum...and many more out and about...can't seem to ever get their heads around--it is the idea of "enough." Now that's the real economic issue.

Of course, human beings have interests and desires that transcend or go beyond economics and "enough." But, in the end, once you start talking about those kinds of issues as if they were important in the context of "good, better, best," you lose perspective and an element of absurdity is introduced to the discussion that supersedes or obviates any other consideration. Simply because every discussion of economics inevitably has to come down to that one central idea.

But that's not what this thread is about. Implicitly, if not actually, it's not what this forum is about.

Such discussions are more appropriate in the parking lot of Walmart. Or a coupon convention.

As far as the issue of dropping threads...it is important. Again esp. in context. For me as a shoemaker--that's my focus, it always will be. "Best practices" is a significant concept in its own right simply because of what it says about the maker and his attention to detail or mindfullness. Maybe even his goals and involvement and commitment.

And it's important to the consumer for the same reason--as a illustration of what kind of care goes into an artifact that purports to be "quality" and costs like it should be quality. If the maker is not concerned about the problems associated with dirt or knots...just plain fastidious, clean work...where it cannot be seen, what kind of attention to detail does he bring to the rest of the work / shoe? And if the consumer is not concerned about those kinds of things, why pay the premium?

Why post here, for that matter?

Again...if it has not been made clear by the title and isn't otherwise evident, this thread and, in particular, my comments (since they were referenced), are about shoemaking, not the economics of shoemaking. Or if so, only peripherally.

And I am a shoemaker. If "best practices" and dropping the thread is not an appropriate consideration for this discussion and for me as a shoemaker, what is? If such considerations are not important to me, who will they be important to? And if they are not important to me as a shoemaker, why in the world would they be important to the customer? How can we ever expect anything but mediocre?

Frankly, I don't know how or why this discussion turned to a defense of EB.
I don't think the person who posted the original question ever mentioned the maker. I made no such association. Even at this point I don't think the name of the maker is significant. And I, for one, appreciate the fact that it wasn't mentioned, simply because not knowing allows a certain objectivity. An objectivity that disappears the minute people decide to defend a maker or an artifact that they themselves had no part in making or creating. It all comes down, at that point, to money and whether the buyer was wise to spend that much money on something he didn't really know anything about and which in all probability exceeded his needs...mindlessly more than "enough"...and all of which was/is entirely subjective.

edited for punctuation and clarity

 

[DWFII]



Again...what a mess. How far do you want to go back? Someone, somewhere, sometime must have mentioned EB and Vass and Meermin. Maybe you should revive some of those old posts too.

Hardly the "current page... even by your definitions.

That was a different discussion. In the current one, Zapasman asked about some photos he posted of forepart and shank fillers. I and several others offered opinions. It had nothing to do with the earlier discussion of stitching aloft.

More...as you're own half-hearted/half-assed versions illustrate...he responded to me when I explained that I had no knowledge of the maker or desire to diss his shoe.

And then vmss responded to him asking about his experience with EB. To which he said he had none.

Again, none of it was relevant to Zapasman's question about forepart filler. Certainly not to me, despite your foaming mouth.

 

[ThunderMarch]

Well, sorry if I had derailed the thread somewhat by mentioning economics. I know this isn't the point of the thread.
I was just trying to say that if the stated maker used and did everything exactly the same as a top bespoke maker did, and yet charged only 460 / 470 euros for it, they'd probably be out of business. I merely feel that their methods and techniques are still fairly reasonable, for what they charge. But I won't talk about this anymore, if it upsets anyone.
I'm also not saying the dropping of threads is acceptable. I'm just saying it gave me food for thought, something to reflect on, because it's a definitely something that would affect the quality, but something I wouldn't be able to tell from looking even at pictures of the insides of the shoe, if I had not observed the shoe maker working.
I have certainly learnt a lot from this thread. Especially from the shoemakers who take the time and efforts to share their knowledge.
No disrespect meant to any of you.

 

[DWFII]



Well, sorry if I had derailed the thread somewhat by mentioning economics. I know this isn't the point of the thread.
I was just trying to say that if the stated maker used and did everything exactly the same as a top bespoke maker did, and yet charged only 460 / 470 euros for it, they'd probably be out of business. I merely feel that their methods and techniques are still fairly reasonable, for what they charge. But I won't talk about this anymore, if it upsets anyone.
I'm also not saying the dropping of threads is acceptable. I'm just saying it gave me food for thought, because it's a definitely something that would affect the quality, but something I wouldn't be able to tell from looking even at pictures of the insides of the shoe, if I had not observed the shoe maker working.
I have certainly learnt a lot from this thread.
No disrespect meant.

As I said above I never thought you were being disrespectful. That's why I took the time to respond to you at length.

And again, whether or not you see them or know they are there, "best practices" have an impact. To dismiss or reject them for whatever reason...even, maybe esp. because they are old fashioned and out of date or because society has moved on...that too has an impact and, I suspect, one that most people here would rue.

Finally, I an not a moderator or a hall monitor. I would not curtail any discussion about economics--I'll follow the discussion where-ever it goes.

But I think people make a big mistake conflating economics with quality. Or even thinking about the two in the same context. It muddles and confuses things. If only because "economics" and priorities and so forth is not only infinitely subjective but infinitely variable. Even if someone rejects the notion of "good, better, best" everyone recognizes pee-poor. And want's to avoid it ...usually with as little effort or thought as possible.

Not everything yields to the 256 grey scale world of relative worth. There is such a thing a absolute quality. At least for most people who work with their hands.

edited for punctuation and clarity

 

[chogall]

Again...what a mess. How far do you want to go back? Someone, somewhere, sometime must have mentioned EB and Vass and Meermin. Maybe you should revive some of those old posts too.

Hardly the "current page... even by your definitions.

That was a different discussion. In the current one, Zapasman asked about some photos he posted of forepart and shank fillers. I and several others offered opinions. It had nothing to do with the earlier discussion of stitching aloft.

More...as you're own half-hearted/half-assed versions illustrate...he responded to me when I explained that I had no knowledge of the maker or desire to diss his shoe.

And then vmss responded to him asking about his experience with EB. To which he said he had none.

Again, none of it was relevant to Zapasman's question about forepart filler. Certainly not to me, despite your foaming mouth.

I have preference set to 100 posts per page in case you are wondering. And I've never mentioned EB in this thread before today. So stop spinning your damn lies.

You put words in my mouth, lie about me bringing EB to the discussion, and now flat out deny and trying to spin and cover. Good job. I dont need you to like me and I don't mind your random name calling. But lying? Where's your integrity? I used to respect you as a shoemaker. Now you are a lying dishonest shoemaker.

I won't go as low as you do smearing lies and false claims on others. I am out.

 

[DWFII]



...

All you had to do was stay on "hiatus" and this discussion would have been fine...no hard feelings all around.

First post back from your hiatus is an attack about an ongoing discussion that you didn't really know anything about and weren't involved in. Same as your opinions about shoemaking--know nothing, not involved.

Three different discussions...stitching aloft, forepart filler, and my response to Thundermarch.

Whether I like you or not is immaterial. You're a provocateur and a disruptive and belligerent instigator with very little positive to contribute.

The real lie is that you "used to respect" me. You don't respect anyone. You just have favourites who agree with you... generally echoing the same dearth of experience and knowledge.

And smarting and uncomfortable being reminded of it.

 

[Whirling]

I think it's great that this thread welcomes genuine, direct questions regarding "shoemaking techniques and traditions" from absolutely anybody who has the inclination and ability to post them here.

I think it's great that people with years of experience actually making bespoke shoes share their knowledge, wisdom, and views for free.

I think it's worse than useless to have people without any experience making or wearing bespoke shoes should waste everybody's time pretending to be an expert and sharing hearsay from the Internet, along with their uninformed impressions based on looking at other people's shoes and based on touring a factory.

 

[ThunderMarch]

+1
You know, I'd second that.
I think that StyFo is a lot of fun. But more than that, it is also a community that welcomes and encourages experts and shoemakers / tailors / industry experts, to actually come in and contribute and discuss ideas.
And to educate.
I owe a lot of what I know or have learnt, to many of the makers who have contributed here; DW, Jmac, shoefan, Nicholas.
I mostly feel like a leech, but am very grateful to have expert opinions and input, that help to elevate the level of disccusion to another level, beyond just patting each other on the back, that does tend to happen quite a bit on SF.