S.E.H Kelly

[DanielPicktonAllen]

Hasn't stopped many companies from selling items like noragis outside of where they originated. I think it has been normalized because I do not hear much of a backlash that they continue to do so.

Others doing something questionable is no reason to do that questionable thing.

 

[shunese]

Others doing something questionable is no reason to do that questionable thing.

Correct, perhaps the sensible thing is everyone stays in their lane and people should stop encouraging terrible practices by supporting it financially.

 

[Spinster Jones]

I don't agree with the problems that's posed regarding haoris. It's more equal to a double breasted with shortened arms (as to be able to work in it). I agree that a Seh Kelly-version could have been a great staple piece.

They usually come in cotton versions, but a linen one would be nice, even a woollen one.

If you guys want to be more inspired towards a contemporary style with an eastern take, T-Michael would be a good start, as mentioned, but I would also recommend watching Andor; "Some good fits, there was".

 

[Csus2]

Ooooh I really want to get in the nitty gritty here but I am self-aware enough to know that styleforum is not the forum for my specific sort of radical left politics.

 

[DanielPicktonAllen]

I don't agree with the problems that's posed regarding haoris. It's more equal to a double breasted with shortened arms (as to be able to work in it). I agree that a Seh Kelly-version could have been a great staple piece.

They usually come in cotton versions, but a linen one would be nice, even a woollen one.

If you guys want to be more inspired towards a contemporary style with an eastern take, T-Michael would be a good start, as mentioned, but I would also recommend watching Andor; "Some good fits, there was".

When you borrow designs from another culture without an understanding of their particular significance in that culture or simply ignoring the traditions surrounding that object you risk harmfully trivialising something that others hold dear. I’m certainly no expert on Japanese history or culture, yet as a historian (in training, I’m a postgrad) I’ve read enough Edward Said to identify orientalism when I see it. I can also tell from a quick bit of research that Haori have important ceremonial and traditional significances. I can also remember controversies over western appropriation of kimono, which are a not unrelated form of traditional Japanese dress.

Clothes items have specific histories. All history is, in some way, political. If any politics is appropriate on Styleforum then perhaps the politics of clothes (and their histories) is probably it. I would argue that the other designs we have talked about before, are not without a politics. I don’t think this has to be a left or right issue, not all political issues necessarily have to fit into that kind of divide.

 

[Spinster Jones]

When you borrow designs from another culture without an understanding of their particular significance in that culture or simply ignoring the traditions surrounding that object you risk harmfully trivialising something that others hold dear.

I know what you guys are getting at. I've read the same books, I've spoken with haori traders, I've talked to T-michael, I spoke with shopkeepers in Japan when I was there, and in my opinion - haoris are a-ok.

I'm not saying to put a print off flowering sakuras, or geishas, or a hannya, but the style has been adapted in the west for hundres of years already. And the japanese, to my knowledge, always speaks of adaptation as something to strive towards.

The style is akin to a shortened bath robe, then. Which all of you probably own. There are multiple parallels already out there.

Just don't dabble in it then, if you're afraid of misstepping. That's alright too.

 

[DanielPicktonAllen]

I know what you guys are getting at. I've read the same books, I've spoken with haori traders, I've talked to T-michael, I spoke with shopkeepers in Japan when I was there, and in my opinion - haoris are a-ok.

I'm not saying to put a print off flowering sakuras, or geishas, or a hannya, but the style has been adapted in the west for hundres of years already. And the japanese, to my knowledge, always speaks of adaptation as something to strive towards.

The style is akin to a shortened bath robe, then. Which all of you probably own. There are multiple parallels already out there.

Just don't dabble in it then, if you're afraid of misstepping. That's alright too.

Personally, and I know I speak for others in the profession, it is frustrating when people equate reading some books with historical training. I did my best in the above comment to be as even handed as I could. I doubt any but a small minority of the historical profession would have disagreed with anything I said.

You clearly have more personal experience of this type of clothing, however I would question how unbiased your sources of information are. Shopkeepers and traders have a vested interest in selling you a product. Likewise a western company that makes Japanese style clothing will have a particular viewpoint. I’ve had a look at the t-Michael website, I would call that appropriation.

Adaptation is fundamentally different from appropriation. Who is doing it, and why, matters. It’s certainly true that there is a long-standing tradition of the west appropriating eastern cultures. That precedent isn’t justification for continuing. I think comparing something like this to a bath robe/dressing gown is an acute example of what I’m talking about being a problem. I think the misstep would be attempting to create a version of this style.

However, for the purposes of this forum the important detail is that Paul has said it’s not something SEH Kelly plan on pursuing. I suggest if we want to continue to have a discussion of cultural appropriation, Japanese dress, or orientalism more generally, that there are better places online to do so.

I say we get back to discussing clothes SEHK do make!

 

[PacoPico]

Speaking of clothes that SEHK makes, are sweaters gone until autumn? Followup question: have they made linen knitwear in past years? I’m on the lookout for linen sweaters but don’t see them very often.

 

[Csus2]

they've done lighter-weight cotton sweaters (a light cardigan and v neck come to mind) but I do not know if they've ever made them in linen.

 

[sehkelly]

Speaking of clothes that SEHK makes, are sweaters gone until autumn? Followup question: have they made linen knitwear in past years? I’m on the lookout for linen sweaters but don’t see them very often.

We have made knitwear in linen before, yes — some lightweight crewnecks and cardigans which will be buried somewhere at https://www.sehkelly.com/worn/.

But we tend to always use cotton in summer now instead.

Sweaters — that's it now, yes, until the autumn. Between now and then, for knitwear, we have some t-shirts coming along in early spring (quite a few) then the polo shirt, v-neck, and cardigan (a very scant number).

 

[OhBanana]

I wonder what SEH Kelly underwear would look like. Forget soft and comfortable, we're going for the tough and rough stuff. The kind that makes you question your sanity.

I forget, are you thinking of releasing the fisherman jacket this spring? Or is it a back to the drawing board type of thing?

 

[sehkelly]

I forget, are you thinking of releasing the fisherman jacket this spring? Or is it a back to the drawing board type of thing?

We're making that one now, yes — hopefully for completion within the next few weeks.

 

[sehkelly]

Another coat we've just wrapped up is the car coat in weatherproof ripstop.

 

[LA Guy]

Personally, and I know I speak for others in the profession, it is frustrating when people equate reading some books with historical training. I did my best in the above comment to be as even handed as I could. I doubt any but a small minority of the historical profession would have disagreed with anything I said.

You clearly have more personal experience of this type of clothing, however I would question how unbiased your sources of information are. Shopkeepers and traders have a vested interest in selling you a product. Likewise a western company that makes Japanese style clothing will have a particular viewpoint. I’ve had a look at the t-Michael website, I would call that appropriation.

Adaptation is fundamentally different from appropriation. Who is doing it, and why, matters. It’s certainly true that there is a long-standing tradition of the west appropriating eastern cultures. That precedent isn’t justification for continuing. I think comparing something like this to a bath robe/dressing gown is an acute example of what I’m talking about being a problem. I think the misstep would be attempting to create a version of this style.

However, for the purposes of this forum the important detail is that Paul has said it’s not something SEH Kelly plan on pursuing. I suggest if we want to continue to have a discussion of cultural appropriation, Japanese dress, or orientalism more generally, that there are better places online to do so.

I say we get back to discussing clothes SEHK do make!

Yes, best to keep the discussion here to SEH Kelly specifically.

You are all welcome to create a thread about clothing and culture. We typically require all politics in the current events forum, but as this would speak to fashion directly, I would allow it in this forum.

I am not Japanese, but I am ethnic Chinese, and I find conversations about say, the Cheong Sam, which is a garment designed in a western style, in Chinese fabrics, and worn by Chinese, and that has nearly completely supplanted the original A line dresses, to be interesting. It’s especially interesting in the context of North America, where the garment has been adopted by many immigrants of East Asian heritage not of Chinese heritage.

 

[OhBanana]

@sehkelly I _think_ it's been used before but any thoughts on Ventile? Organic or otherwise? I'm guessing the weatherproof ripstop just in general is better as a working material?

I was interested in it initially but thinking about how it works by swelling the fibers through the _absorbtion_ of water made me somewhat leery of it. Swelled fibers -> denser fabric -> stiff. Also wet cotton weighs a ton and generally takes a bit to dry. Plus I kind of wonder if any movements might wring out some slight amount of liquid or even wick it out onto your skin upon contact.