Luxury clothes of the past

[JohnMRobie]

another forum grammarian yawn .

so what is your most luxurious material possession ?

My wife and son.

 

[double00]

My wife and son.

lol ok

 

[Crispyj]

lol ok

You should see his art collection. He's being nice here. You're picking the wrong fight.

@JohnMRobie don't you have a few pieces on loan at Smithsonian currently?

 

[double00]

You should see his art collection. He's being nice here. You're picking the wrong fight.

@JohnMRobie don't you have a few pieces on loan at Smithsonian currently?

no no you don't understand the only true luxury is love . especially true in clothing threaks titled ' luxury clothes of the past ' .

anyways art is not a luxury .

 

[JohnMRobie]

You should see his art collection. He's being nice here. You're picking the wrong fight.

@JohnMRobie don't you have a few pieces on loan at Smithsonian currently?

Yes - And the Met. But I was also being serious - those pale in comparison to the memories with my family. The art is beautiful but they’re just things. My son enjoys playing with the statues and silver though.

 

[Crispyj]

Curious who you would consider to be the leaders of bespoke tailoring these days. I've always thought of selecting a bespoke artisan (tailor, shoemaker, etc.) as a matter of tastes and styling, but I suppose there are objective quality metrics you can compare them against each other on.

Back to your question. I have seen way too many issues with the cut of a jacket coming out from tailors in general these days, be it British or Italian. From my experiences, it's just much more prevalent among British tailors.

Best examples are when you have someone who has minimum knowledge regarding fit and send them on their own to order bespoke. Like Kirby, his stuff from KHL are quite disappointing.


Moving to Simon Crompton. He tries a lot of tailors. Most suck, especially the ones featured years ago who basically just want advertisement. But in recent articles, there have been quite a few impactful garments Simon has received. The most notable one I would say is Assisi in Korea. I've personally visited them in Seoul. They had curiosity of what I wore (Qemal Doppio Uso) and they were eager to prove their work (provided fitting garments freshly pressed even though I had no appointment).


One of the biggest **** ups was Vittorio's jacket for Simon. That thing was cut like it would fit a sumo wrestler. On the opposite end of a roomy cut, you can see a few video Vittorio is tagged in on Instagram and that guy's jacket has lapels bowing out. Delivering finished garments like that to clients, it's beyond my imagination how people still flock towards tailors like these. Having worked at a famous tailor shop doesn't make someone a good tailor.


My conclusion is that the conscience of the tailor really determines how well the garment will come out. You have control freaks like Corcos who will make sure everything fits exactly the way he wants to. The precision is extreme and everything he produces is infallible. Quite a few Neapolitan tailors are still maintaining good quality and consistency. But a warning to never fall deep in the romance of tailoring. Tailors with reputations of their prime may not carry over the same work quality later in life.

As always, everyone's relationship with their tailor is independent of others. What may work for you, may not work for me. My opinions merely stem from my experiences and objectives that I value.

 

[epsilon22]

Back to your question. I have seen way too many issues with the cut of a jacket coming out from tailors in general these days, be it British or Italian. From my experiences, it's just much more prevalent among British tailors.

Best examples are when you have someone who has minimum knowledge regarding fit and send them on their own to order bespoke. Like Kirby, his stuff from KHL are quite disappointing.


Moving to Simon Crompton. He tries a lot of tailors. Most suck, especially the ones featured years ago who basically just want advertisement. But in recent articles, there have been quite a few impactful garments Simon has received. The most notable one I would say is Assisi in Korea. I've personally visited them in Seoul. They had curiosity of what I wore (Qemal Doppio Uso) and they were eager to prove their work (provided fitting garments freshly pressed even though I had no appointment).


One of the biggest **** ups was Vittorio's jacket for Simon. That thing was cut like it would fit a sumo wrestler. On the opposite end of a roomy cut, you can see a few video Vittorio is tagged in on Instagram and that guy's jacket has lapels bowing out. Delivering finished garments like that to clients, it's beyond my imagination how people still flock towards tailors like these. Having worked at a famous tailor shop doesn't make someone a good tailor.


My conclusion is that the conscience of the tailor really determines how well the garment will come out. You have control freaks like Corcos who will make sure everything fits exactly the way he wants to. The precision is extreme and everything he produces is infallible. Quite a few Neapolitan tailors are still maintaining good quality and consistency. But a warning to never fall deep in the romance of tailoring. Tailors with reputations of their prime may not carry over the same work quality later in life.

As always, everyone's relationship with their tailor is independent of others. What may work for you, may not work for me. My opinions merely stem from my experiences and objectives that I value.

Haha I guess I'm not insane for thinking my RTW/MTM jackets have less collar gap than some of Kirby's bespoke jackets.

With Simon I think it's interesting how some tailors are able to make garments that are much more flattering on him than others. That Assisi example you provided definitely looks better than many other bespoke commissions he has had. I also recall liking how his jackets from Steven Hitchcock looked too.

Thanks for your opinion and explanation, I'm still doing research before committing into bespoke tailoring so this is very helpful.

 

[Keyser_Söze]

Back to your question. I have seen way too many issues with the cut of a jacket coming out from tailors in general these days, be it British or Italian. From my experiences, it's just much more prevalent among British tailors.

Best examples are when you have someone who has minimum knowledge regarding fit and send them on their own to order bespoke. Like Kirby, his stuff from KHL are quite disappointing.


Moving to Simon Crompton. He tries a lot of tailors. Most suck, especially the ones featured years ago who basically just want advertisement. But in recent articles, there have been quite a few impactful garments Simon has received. The most notable one I would say is Assisi in Korea. I've personally visited them in Seoul. They had curiosity of what I wore (Qemal Doppio Uso) and they were eager to prove their work (provided fitting garments freshly pressed even though I had no appointment).


One of the biggest **** ups was Vittorio's jacket for Simon. That thing was cut like it would fit a sumo wrestler. On the opposite end of a roomy cut, you can see a few video Vittorio is tagged in on Instagram and that guy's jacket has lapels bowing out. Delivering finished garments like that to clients, it's beyond my imagination how people still flock towards tailors like these. Having worked at a famous tailor shop doesn't make someone a good tailor.


My conclusion is that the conscience of the tailor really determines how well the garment will come out. You have control freaks like Corcos who will make sure everything fits exactly the way he wants to. The precision is extreme and everything he produces is infallible. Quite a few Neapolitan tailors are still maintaining good quality and consistency. But a warning to never fall deep in the romance of tailoring. Tailors with reputations of their prime may not carry over the same work quality later in life.

As always, everyone's relationship with their tailor is independent of others. What may work for you, may not work for me. My opinions merely stem from my experiences and objectives that I value.

Your example for Kirby is bad. That suit was from a vintage shop in London he bought off the rack. It wasn't a bespoke suit.

 

[Crispyj]

Your example for Kirby is bad. That suit was from a vintage shop in London he bought off the rack. It wasn't a bespoke suit.

Yea KHL is vintage shop

 

[JohnMRobie]

Your example for Kirby is bad. That suit was from a vintage shop in London he bought off the rack. It wasn't a bespoke suit.

That’s not the vintage one he got. Ironically, the one that was made for someone else fit him better. 😂

 

[Keyser_Söze]

That’s not the vintage one he got. Ironically, the one that was made for someone else fit him better. 😂

Wow, that's very odd.

 

[JohnMRobie]

Wow, that's very odd.

Here is the vintage one. It had besom pockets, not the triple patch like KHL made him

 

[tdang]

In my relatively limited experience of ordering bespoke (not in terms of quantity, but rather the number of years spent actively developing relationships with makers, which I think is a more reliable indicator of experience), the best tailors are first and foremost those you enjoy spending time with, and just as importantly they should be equally interested in seeing you handsomely attired as you yourself are.

So for me, the best is not necessarily the 'finest', nor the most legitimate heir of a tailoring tradition. It is certainly a thrill to get to try the finest for something really special and commemorative (I fantasize about a Cifonelli dinner jacket at least once a day), but the best tailors are the ones who I entrust with making my everyday clothes and thus have a direct impact on how I look most of the time and how that look evolves. At the moment, that's Corcos (and another Japanese veteran with past ties to Ciccio who shall remain unnamed for the time being, but I'm sure the nerds already know who he is 😂).

As far as the objective ranking of the current top names is concerned, I repeatedly get told that Qemal is unimpeachable.

 

[jonathanS]

I’ve been following with interest, and there are some interesting points I’d make. Now, the things I say are based off my conversations with tailors and apprentices in workshops in Naples, Milan, Florence, and England (savile row). Some are well known names that are well regarded on the forums (but, given that I haven’t gotten their permission to share, I will withhold using their names).

1. There are a lack of tailors of the past:

I remember I had a conversation at the bar with a savile row tailor (although not technically on the row & he has been mentioned for his consistency in this thread) and he emphasized to me that his tailor (coat maker) was an old Kilgore tailor. He cut, but his jacket maker was from Kilgore. Kilgore was a firm of the past that was a pillar of savile row and made the jackets for Cary grant.

Today, there aren’t as many skilled tailors (jacket makers) & distinguished from cutters. Talk to any tailor, finding a good tailor is not easy. (@Despos, can you confirm this please? Also if I say anything here, please feel free to correct me.) From my understanding, a bad jacket maker can ruin a well-cut suit.

At Henry Poole, for example, they are extremely busy and have 5 cutters with countless jacket makers / tailors. If you get a bad jacket maker, you better hope the cutter was really good. I think the is probably what leads to the inconsistency in larger houses (huntsman, Poole, cifonelli etc.).

2. The fabrics of today are lighter

I think it’s lost that the fabrics of yesterday were heavier. It’s easier, by all accounts, to cut, iron & shape a garment with heavier fabric.

3. Don’t believe all the marketing men

I know of “bespoke” operations that are actually factory mtm, sometimes basted together. Marketing men are often very personable, and I’m not calling out any individual, but they exist.

And, I know a lot of our society has an issue with them, but they also provide a service: they can guide less knowledgeable customers to a good-enough product (even if paying top dollar).

4. Don’t believe all the igents armed with Bruce Boyer books pumped full of mark Cho videos.

Don’t get me wrong, those guys are awesome and you can learn a lot from them. But, nothing beats personal experience with the tailors. Building relationships with tailors and your own, albeit expensive, experience. These igents relate to the previous point: they often will read so much that they believe the marketing men and start sounding like them!!

Hell, maybe, don’t even listen to me, but I’m just giving my thoughts based off of my experience & others who have shared their bespoke tailoring stories with me.

That said, these igents will often push certain tailors. Tell you this tailor is infallible. But all humans are fallible & tailors are human. Mistakes happen. I remember I was talking with a gentleman who was a client of an English tailor that dieworkwear hypes up & he told me his fitting trousers were 3” short!!

There’s a tailor in Napoli that is well regarded by the blogs for his expertise. However, he had a stroke a few years ago, his son now cuts and let’s just say, the apple fell far from the tree. I can’t tell you the number of friends I’ve had who tell me it was an absolute disaster.

I, myself, used a Napoli tailor that dieworkwear now pushes (not sure why he likes them). But it’s not a well made suit (whether it’s cutting or tailoring, I’m not sure).

Conclusion Thoughts: relationships matter.

As I write this, I think it goes to the importance of your relationship with the tailor who is cutting your clothing: if you have a relationship, they’re more likely to send the garment to the better tailor (jacket maker or trouser maker) who is good.

I don’t remember who it was, but someone once observed that, with bespoke tailors, it takes time to get to build the relationship so that the tailor (head of house) will give your garments to the best jacket makers (which maybe is why it took one member 11 orders to get a passable product from a well-regarded English tailor). For the record, I strongly disagree with this sentiment and don’t think anyone should wait around for 11 orders.

I don’t pretend to know what happened to Kirby’s suit at Kent haste & lachte. But I had a good impression of them, and now I don’t. And that suit wasn’t even Kirby’s first suit from them. I’d like to joke that John Kent saw the suit he made for Kirby & realized it was time to retire. It could be a struggle finding the right jacket makers to make the suit. I dont know - I’m just guessing.

Nor do I pretend to know what happened to the disaster of Vittorio Salino either. I can understand that issue if Simon had a prominent chest. But he doesn’t.

I also realized that I used tailor (jacket maker) and tailor (head of house) throughout this, so you’ll have to excuse that.

 

[JohnMRobie]

3. Don’t believe all the marketing men

I know of “bespoke” operations that are actually factory mtm, sometimes basted together. Marketing men are often very personable, and I’m not calling out any individual, but they exist.

And, I know a lot of our society has an issue with them, but they also provide a service: they can guide less knowledgeable customers to a good-enough product (even if paying top dollar).

My problem with most of these guys is that aside from the dishonesty in the marketing and claiming they’re bespoke, they largely aren’t putting out good product.

That isn’t to say it’s worse than it used to be, there have been shoddy tailors and marketers for a long time, but the number of guys claiming they’re bespoke and sending measurements off to Kutesmart lack taste and skill. You see it reflected in the garments often times and the flawed patterns that all these guys seem to use.

I’ve been harping on the point that the lack of taste and knowledge is the real thing that’s been lost but I also think there is more good diversity of good options around in places they didn’t used to exist if you’re willing to look a little bit. Weirdly one of the better US based CM stores out there I think gives good advice is based in South Dakota of all places with locations in Nebraska and Minnesota.