If I hate law school, will I hate lawyering?

[BC2012]

Originally Posted by Mad Hatter

Relax and become an entertainment lawyer, instead of a criminal lawyer or any other such boring side of the profession. You get invited to Hollywood parties, girls will want to **** you and you will make a ton of coin.

 

[Mad Hatter]

Originally Posted by BC2012

Piven is playing an agent, not an entertainment lawyer.

 

[BC2012]

Ari has a JD/MBA from Michigan and works for his client's best interests in the entertainment industry. Damn close enough.

 

[ArliHawk`]

Originally Posted by BC2012

Ari has a JD/MBA from Michigan and works for his client's best interests in the entertainment industry. Damn close enough.

Thought Ari's JD/MBA was from USC?

 

[BC2012]

Originally Posted by ArliHawk`

Thought Ari's JD/MBA was from USC?
Nope. Undergrad from Harvard, if I remember, too. A rep at UM Law made sure to mention it a few times. haha. Edit: Wikipedia confirms. UG: Harvard. JD/MBA UM.

 

[Avocat]

LSAT? What’s that? Oh, right the thing you write (along with the GPA earned) to get into law school … (yeah, I suddenly remember it: Yale full scholarship offer, 1L, transfer back to a CDN law school also full scholarship plus full faith and credit for all credits earned so as not to lose a single credit after playing them all off against each other, though I had to “repeat” Con plus one other 1L course (it was b/w Property and Crim, I chose Crim as simply didn’t want to sit through any more of that fief’ee and fief’or … once was enough, thanks, though I suppose for turning down the CDN offers to insist upon a joint US-CDN program of my very own I had to be “punished” somehow (*tongue-firmly-in-cheek). Yes, as a senior attorney dually-trained and dually-licensed so many years now, I forgot about that whole LSAT thing (the hoops we jump through, huh?). I take solace in knowing at least when we moot and/or work in the clinics for practical training (there being something for everyone in a good law school, as a good law program should of course offer), well, think about those poor medical students: how does one practice bed side manner, etc. with a cadaver is beyond me

That said, and seriously, the practice of law is a calling, as is the practice of medicine. I certainly wouldn't base a decision on the required 1L program (having done it sorta twice, in two different countries and at top notch international law schools, I can without hesitation say that the required program is a bit of a "drill" albeit necessary). However, it's not for everyone, anymore than is medicine or playing the piano. Practice as they say does indeed make perfect, and once out there doing it, when all that theory comes together and you're negotiating a deal and/or litigating an important case for a client you actually maybe might care about, you suddenly find that you are in fact a lawyer. Every once in a while, not every day but every once in awhile, a case comes along and we get the unique opportunity to make a very real difference in the lives of our client, a whole community or even the country. It is a privilege, indeed. Sure, most days are a grind (like most doctors say, "say awwww"), but I enjoy the practice of law, as both a practitioner and professor of law. I also enjoyed law school, but being from a family having long-standing roots in the profession, I also knew what I was getting into from the get go. Unlike in times past, the law (and medical) academy selects students based on LSATs and GPAs pretty much solely. True, a 4.0 plus in undergrad, be in Poltico-Economics and business, or math and science, may get one a seat in law or med, but it doesn't necessarily mean one will excel in law or med much less go on to become a successful lawyer or doctor. That the OP took the time to try and meet with lawyers is wonderful, and I am sorry to hear that for whatever reason these lawyers were too busy or otherwise to meet with him. I understand that, for dental students, it is a requirement that all prospective dentists-to-be meet with and shadow a dentist for at least a day to apply to dental school, so that these prospective dentists have an idea of what it is a dentist actually does before going to dental school since many of these students don't have any dentists in the family. The fact that many prospective lawyers and doctors today don't come from legal and/or medical families says to me that maybe the legal and medical academies might consider something similar, if only to assist people like Dexter, the OP, when making such an important, life-altering decision like going to and/or not going to law school. It's an interesting idea, I think, and I applaud Dexter for trying. Good for you, Dexter, and here's wishing you all the best in your alternate/new career path. Sorry to hear law didn't work out for you, but yes, it's true: law, like medicine, isn't for everyone and I quare whether the academy can do more to assist prospective students in their decisions. Would love to hear your thoughts about this, having gone through it as you did.

 

[Kyoung05]

As others have said, it really depends. I wouldn't say I hated my law school experience, but I treated law school as simply a means to an end - I went to class, went to work, and then went home. I spent very little time on campus if I didn't have to, participated in "extra-curricular" activities only to the extent I thought necessary to enhance my resume (i.e. moot court, journal, and served as the "treasurer" of a student organization). Otherwise, my mentality was very much "get in, get out, get on with life." Although, I will say that during my 1L year, I did pretty much what all of the other students were doing, i.e. staying on campus after class to do reading, coming back to campus during weekends, outlining, going to study groups, etc. because, let's face it, law school is very different from undergrad, and most students are, by and large, scared shitless during their first year.

After my 1L year, I started working law clerk-y type positions, and continued to do so until I graduated - I basically worked ~20hrs/week while school was in session, and 40hrs/week during winter/summer break. During that time, I realized how poorly law school prepared students for the actual practice of law (fwiw, I think law school does a pretty ****** job of preparing students to take the bar exam, but that's a different rant). Really, it's alarming. This is particularly true for transactional work (which is what I did/do), although I assume it's also true (to a lesser extent) for litigation. Sure, we learned how to write memos, do research, etc., but not once did we actually learn anything remotely useful about drafting a contract - hell, during the year-long contracts class, we can spend 6 weeks talking about offer/acceptance and consideration, but we can't spend 1 day actually looking at a real contract and talking about the various provisions? Of course, it wasn't until much later that I learned law professors seldom have any actual experience practicing law.

In any event, going back to my original point, it all depends. If you plan on practicing appellate-level litigation, law school MAY be somewhat indicative of the actual practice. Otherwise, no, I don't think there's much correlation between law school and the practice of law.

 

[BC2012]

Originally Posted by Avocat

LSAT? What’s that? Oh, right the thing you write (along with the GPA earned) to get into law school … (yeah, I suddenly remember it: Yale full scholarship offer, 1L, transfer back to a CDN law school also full scholarship plus full faith and credit for all credits earned so as not to lose a single credit after playing them all off against each other, though I had to “repeat” Con plus one other 1L course (it was b/w Property and Crim, I chose Crim as simply didn’t want to sit through any more of that fief’ee and fief’or … once was enough, thanks, though I suppose for turning down the CDN offers to insist upon a joint US-CDN program of my very own I had to be “punished” somehow (*tongue-firmly-in-cheek).
I am fairly sure Yale doesn't offer any merit scholarships but, who knows, it could have been different before. Interesting school path, Avocat.

 

[nerdykarim]

Originally Posted by TC (Houston)

I went to a top 20 law school, and I absolutely hated everything about it. I graduated around the middle of my class and managed to charm my way into an associate position at a mid-sized Houston firm. Immediately on starting I figured out that a transactional practice was NOTHING like anything I experienced in law school, and I really enjoyed the practice. I lateraled into BigLaw after my 4th year, worked ****** off, and made partner after my 7th year. Just this last year I left the mega firm to join a regional Texas firm as a senior partner. I could never go through law school again, I still have nightmares about it. LOL

Originally Posted by sartorialism

You just made my day a little better.

Mine too...thanks for sharing your thoughts.

 

[Avocat]

Originally Posted by BC2012

I am fairly sure Yale doesn't offer any merit scholarships but, who knows, it could have been different before. Interesting school path, Avocat.

Thanks, BC.

I can't tell you about scholarships, grants, etc. these days, but back in the 90s, I can say that US and CDN programs were flush with cash and sponsors per se (and, yes, it helps when you achieve a so-called LSAT in the top percentile plus a GPA better than 4.0--called first class honours, with first class distinction up here, equating to a 91-100 percentile grade average--it's rather wonderful what they will do for you, and I would seriously hope still do, as that would be rather sad frankly if they didn't). That said, I do understand that monies are harder to come by these days (many Fortune 100 and big firm scholarships which are or at least were merit based and which private US schools put students in touch with rather automatically don't seem to be as plentiful these days, which is a shame but understandable I suppose on account of the economy. Having just recently taken a look at the situation as it relates to US programs, seems that the push is towards loan forgiveness for public interest work, coupled with "diversity scholarships" for minority candidates instead, thus needs based as you suggest from what I'm seeing, too (I think you're probably right about the situation as it stands today, which (sigh) is a shame, if so).

Heh, without "dating myself" here, I remember when uh starting undergrad and tuition in Canada in the 80s/early 90s was something ridiculously inexpensive like 1,000 per year, due to the fact the gov't subsidizes CDN students studying in Canada (all CDN schools are private, with all CDN students being subsidized unlike in the US system); then, in the 90s, subsidies were cut such that students were paying about 8,000-10,000 (law school) with fees shooting up yet again, on account of further reductions in terms of those subsidies to 15,000-18,000 by the turn of the C 21st (LL.M.). Yeah, I know: still a bargain cf. US tuition, being about half the cost of US tuition and about the same actually now as what UK students I understand are (suddenly) paying (weren't they at about 1,000 or some other fee similar to what CDNs paid back in the 80s/90s, and now at 15,000 or something like that? Not even a period of transition which is, well, egads). So glad to be on the alumni side of things, is alls I be saying about it (really, tuition fees today for most, barring family resources on account of dwindling scholarships and grants is frankly insane, and I'm not THAT old to be complaining about it either, I mean, salaries have gone up over the same period sure, but no where near uh 200 percent, or even close!).

As to the school path, thanks. It reads a lot easier on the thread than it actually was doing, dare I say. During this time period, thank god much has changed insofar as CDN schools are much more accepting of US education today (back then, I kid you not, while negotiating my transfer, I well remember one CDN school which wasn't prepared to give me a single credit for any work done in the US, but in the very same breath offered me a full scholarship plus admitted that I would have an "obvious and unfair advantage" (their words) if forced to repeat the entire first year program in Canada on account of my "substantially similar US law school training" (again, their words). To which I obviously said, "next".

I pointed out to these schools that, in addition to NAFTA and WTO, etc. (trade in services, etc.), many US state bars, including but not limited to NY at that time for e.g., permit CDN law grads to sit equally along ABA grads and write the exams, hence full reciprocity (though I believe the US patent bar refused a CDN law grad permission to write, but based not on education but, rather, the fact that the applicant failed to meet the US residency requirements). That said, fair is only fair, but it was a negotiation alright. Initially, I was expecting at least a half year's worth of advanced standing but able to pull a full year so that was really great (based once again on GPA, etc., then, I had also turned down CDN with scholarship offers only to return via transfer, so ... ) Most happy to say the road is clear, precedents set, etc. for any and all who may wish to do similarly, though I also understand that many US and CDN schools have since come together to offer joint CDN-US law degrees officially, as opposed to my ad hoc method of achieving same, which is great; heck, even the one CDN school that back then was wanting to deny me any credit for my work in the US is today on board with a similar program, and has even joined the AALS (a new dean changes things, I think

That said, I'm really glad I did the ad hoc program that I did, and even although unnecessary in terms of writing the NY bar, it did help--i.e., if only to give me comfort when writing that bar and also assisting me land my first law job in NYC (I can't say for sure, but verily believe at least in great part I got that offer on account of the fact I completed an important part of my law degree in the US, while continuing of course to study the US view of the law as it related to all of my courses in Canada, thus making law school a bit more interesting also, at least for me, though I don't really think my 1L CDN Crim prof appreciated the comparisons I made b/w CDN and US law on the subject, but my 1L CDN Con prof did, she herself having completed part of her own legal studies in the US).

Ah, but that said, I must admit that I was "punished" so to speak once again on returning to Canada insofar as, to get my Ontario license, even although I had worked for a law firm and in the legal dept. of a Fortune 100 company in the US as a US licensed attorney, I was nevertheless required by LSUC to complete their required articles-of-clerkship (mandatory 1-year post grad practical training program under supervision of a licensed ON lawyer, which they still required of me though were willing to give me "advanced standing" so to speak insofar as they were willing to cut that required period of slaving for peanuts basically in half -- gee, thanks

Happy to say that these days, for licensed US attorneys with actual practical experience as I had back then, the mandatory practical slaving period is waived, allowing US licensed attorneys from ABA/AALS approved schools to basically call for their ON license these days by basically writing some challenge exams to achieve a "certificate of equivalency" (issued by a special committee), thereby bypassing the CDN law school requirement and moving on to the final phase of ie LSUC testing, which basically consists of a series of professional (practical) courses at the end of each of which is an examination, followed by "fitness and character" assessment and, voila, membership at the bar and of course one's license to practice. Nothing to it, really, which all who are interested can read more about here: http://rc.lsuc.on.ca/jsp/membershipS...ingALawyer.jsp (becoming a lawyer in ON); http://www.flsc.ca/en/foreignLawyers/foreignLawyers.asp (NCA certificate process).

Of course, for US law students interested in practicing say in NY for e.g. but wishing to save a bit on tuition fees, CDN common law (English) schools which are about half the price might be an option, just be aware that not all US bars (yet) accept CDN credentials as equivalent, such that you might want to check with your state bar first (otherwise, you'll be required to make a motion for a substantial equivalency assessment, which many provide for but no CDN has necessarily done so in your particular state yet ... unless of course you wish to be a "pioneer" of sorts as I did, which (let's face it) was fun, but kinda nice to have a precedent

Anywho, just some more food for thought for law students both current and prospective out there, which I hope people here find interesting as well as helpful, if only to demystify the process a bit more (and let's face it, it is a process as many others here have said, and with which I couldn't possibly agree more). Finally, as to comments about law profs these days having little or no practice experience, I also agree (this has changed, and I agree it's a shame, then, I also think it's been a lament of law students since, well, the beginning of law school really -- I promise all the students out there, however, that once you're out there, practicing, it will come together for you and next thing you know you're practicing law. Promise

tl/DR: becoming a lawyer is a process, the study of law itself only being a part of it and always was. That said, more options for the pursuit of one's law studies are available to today's law students as was the case for lawyers of the past, so far as state and provincial bars in North America are increasingly accepting "foreign" legal education and credentials, provided such education is "substantially similar/equivalent" to that offered by an ABA approved law school in the US, or a Common Law (English) School in Canada, respectively. This movement towards the increasing acceptance of "foreign credentials and training" in and throughout North America is exciting, so far as it not only may help law students in terms of costs, but also opens up new and exciting possibilities in terms of the program of legal studies itself, in terms of breath and understanding as it relates to a North American wide (and/or global) perspective.

 

[warmpi]

Originally Posted by Avocat

tl/DR: becoming a lawyer is a process, the study of law itself only being a part of it and always was. That said, more options for the pursuit of one's law studies are available to today's law students as was the case for lawyers of the past, so far as state and provincial bars in North America are increasingly accepting "foreign" legal education and credentials, provided such education is "substantially similar/equivalent" to that offered by an ABA approved law school in the US, or a Common Law (English) School in Canada, respectively. This movement towards the increasing acceptance of "foreign credentials and training" in and throughout North America is exciting, so far as it not only may help law students in terms of costs, but also opens up new and exciting possibilities in terms of the program of legal studies itself, in terms of breath and understanding as it relates to a North American wide (and/or global) perspective.

As a Canadian considering law school: thanks, that was an interesting read.

 

[urymoto]

law is horribly boring...its really bad

 

[aguydude]

Originally Posted by urymoto

law is horribly boring...its really bad

Thanks for that informative insight. Please, do come again.

 

[JTK]

Originally Posted by Mad Hatter

Relax and become an entertainment lawyer, instead of a criminal lawyer or any other such boring side of the profession. You get invited to Hollywood parties, girls will want to **** you and you will make a ton of coin.

This is the path I took. I don't make a "ton of coin" (compared to big firm practice), but the quality of life is priceless!