The CHESS Thread

[LA Guy]

the board itself is the context , no ? that's my working premise anyways ... more about the board than the pieces per se .

i've been dabbling in visualization technique to see what fits me . i thin this year i'm going to lean into that training we'll see how it goes !

Not sure what you mean by "the board is the context". For me, the context are the underlying strategic and tactical ideas for a set of moves. I find that the lessons on chess.com are reasonable starting points for beginners (which I think is up to about 1700 ELO). Apparently expert is 2000 ELO and above.

 

[double00]

Not sure what you mean by "the board is the context".

🤷‍♀️

For me, the context are the underlying strategic and tactical ideas for a set of moves. I find that the lessons on chess.com are reasonable starting points for beginners (which I think is up to about 1700 ELO). Apparently expert is 2000 ELO and above.

sure . but i'm not referring to mechanics of play i'm referring to a prior elective skill . i'll edit to add : the chess site doesn't offer this , idk why .

 

[LA Guy]

🤷‍♀️



sure . but i'm not referring to mechanics of play i'm referring to a prior elective skill . i'll edit to add : the chess site doesn't offer this , idk why .

I am not sure what you mean by prior elective skill. I've worked a tiny bit in educational research, and I have friends in fields like science and math education, and I'm afraid that I've never heard of the term. What exactly do you mean by it? I'm also not sure what you mean by "mechanics of play" in this context. Clearly you are not talking about the actual mechanics - i.e. the pieces and the moves they make, and I suppose tactics, but it doesn't seem like you are talking about the strategies for either. I'm not sure what you mean by visualization tools either. On Chess.com, you can use the classroom, outside of a game you can set up an analysis board, etc... Maybe you had something else in mind? Genuinely curious re. your educational methods. I know that my brothers and I grew up with a very traditional Chinese and also growth mindset style of education, which I think is one of the great things about the Chinese style of education (that's a topic for another thread), and I know that it served our family well, by pretty much every metric of which I am aware. However, I'm always in learning mode, and am happy to learn about other didactic methods.

 

[double00]

I am not sure what you mean by prior elective skill. I've worked a tiny bit in educational research, and I have friends in fields like science and math education, and I'm afraid that I've never heard of the term. What exactly do you mean by it? I'm also not sure what you mean by "mechanics of play" in this context. Clearly you are not talking about the actual mechanics - i.e. the pieces and the moves they make, and I suppose tactics, but it doesn't seem like you are talking about the strategies for either. I'm not sure what you mean by visualization tools either. On Chess.com, you can use the classroom, outside of a game you can set up an analysis board, etc... Maybe you had something else in mind? Genuinely curious re. your educational methods. I know that my brothers and I grew up with a very traditional Chinese and also growth mindset style of education, which I think is one of the great things about the Chinese style of education (that's a topic for another thread), and I know that it served our family well, by pretty much every metric of which I am aware. However, I'm always in learning mode, and am happy to learn about other didactic methods.

notation is an apt example of what i meant by prior elective skill . it's not requisite yet it informs subsequent study .

Visualization • lichess.org

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i suspect most players don't pursue visualization which may be why i can't find any resources on chesssss.com . blindfold play is not eidetic talent it is a skill . there are different ways to look at developing that skill , i like a lot of the associative notation exercises , i'll probably generate my own graphic concept but i'm still sifting and trying to figure out where to put my time n effort .

 

[double00]

hey google is it legal to use an analysis board in daily chess ?



now let's check the chess.com faqs :

i'll have that apology anytime loser @greekgeek

 

[double00]

I am not sure what you mean by prior elective skill. I've worked a tiny bit in educational research, and I have friends in fields like science and math education, and I'm afraid that I've never heard of the term. What exactly do you mean by it? I'm also not sure what you mean by "mechanics of play" in this context. Clearly you are not talking about the actual mechanics - i.e. the pieces and the moves they make, and I suppose tactics, but it doesn't seem like you are talking about the strategies for either. I'm not sure what you mean by visualization tools either. On Chess.com, you can use the classroom, outside of a game you can set up an analysis board, etc... Maybe you had something else in mind? Genuinely curious re. your educational methods. I know that my brothers and I grew up with a very traditional Chinese and also growth mindset style of education, which I think is one of the great things about the Chinese style of education (that's a topic for another thread), and I know that it served our family well, by pretty much every metric of which I am aware. However, I'm always in learning mode, and am happy to learn about other didactic methods.

if you're asking this in a more general sense my early education was autodidactic but i sort of think that was circumstantial ... i taught myself to read very early ( i watched my kiddo do the same thing , one day he was asking me about traffic signs and then all of a sudden he was reading stuff to me . iirc he was 3 ) . i skipped a grade b/c i was learning independently . all of that was mostly to do with literacy and critical analysis which carried on into hs and by the end of college i'd burnt out on writing .

as an aside i'll ask you : in school did you ever feel like you learned the most during the test ? it's the greatest feeling to me when all the pieces get fused into actual knowledge through the crucible of focus .

fast forward to design school , the instruction was great but my cohort was absolutely incredible , just a lot of engaged talent so we learned a ton from each other , easily the best experience that i've had in school . my grad school cohort was very disappointing by comparison and the instructors mostly dgaf but whatever .

***

in terms of chess it's worth asking myself 2 years in what i see in the game and what i think i can do with it . i only started playing so as to socialize over a board .

competitiveness doesn't motivate me , i'm aiming to win of course but for me chess is a means to beauty . i don't care about elo . i don't care what the engine thinks is the best move . tactics are great and i agree its 99% of the game but to me seeing The Plan blossom is where it's at .

but it's back to the drawing board for me i think . i'll take some months to incorporate viz into my game and then that version of me can get back to studying tactics and playing . come to think of it i've done this with music performance too , deliberately overhauling my approach .

so whatever 'dact that is lol . if you want to tell me about chinese style of learning by all means ! as threak starter i'm happy to have the convo here .

 

[greekgeek]

hey google is it legal to use an analysis board in daily chess ?

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now let's check the chess.com faqs :

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i'll have that apology anytime loser @greekgeek

Now we are posting other forum posts to back you up? Just refer back to the official Fair Play rules that I already posted.

As for an apology, keep dreaming bud...

The fact that your style and manner of play changed dramatically between games and then within games is all I need to know that you are full of it. I remarked to others about it at the time, it was so patently obvious.

Your confession was justifiably enough to continue playing but you've revealed yourself to be a quite a prick. Now you want to deny having help picking moves or using an engine, laughable.

Try selling that garbage to someone else lol. Looking forward to see the banhammer come out as you eventually get caught speeding.

 

[LA Guy]

So, the problem with evaluation bars is they have no "stupid human factor", that is to say, they cannot distinguish between super sharp lines and slower, positional games.

This is not really my field at all, but the evaluation bar calculation basically evaluates the position if the player whose turn it is makes the best possible move. It does not distinguish between easy to see moves and extremely difficult ones. So, if the engine says +9. for example, there could be ten +9 moves out of 10, or just one +9 move, and then the rest of the moves are -5. The engine evaluation does not distinguish these two very different situations.

The result is that the evaluation bar is poorly predictive in super sharp lines. Anna Cramling played this game yesterday, and if you listen to Pia and evaluate the position, though she has a "winning advantage", if she had made a single wrong move, she would have been completely losing or, iirc, could have hung checkmate, with no time for the defenders in time to get back.



she ultimately wins, but the game is completely crazy, and at one point, there is not a single space for the king to move, but the defenders are all in the right position, and the evaluation bar shows an overwhelming advantage, since she is two pieces up, but she could have gone from completely winning to completely losing in a single move.

 

[SchachMundialECapital]

You're welcome to "advertise" that here. If you start making Gotham Chess money, we might expect a bit of consideration, of course. Maybe it would be cool if you could show us a few things. I'm still very confused about how to connect your plans to pawn structures still.

So, let's draw an analogy here. Pawn structure = skeleton. The shape of the bones and the joints determines how the muscles and tendons should be attached.

It is the same way with chess pieces. They are the muscles of your position. The pawn structure (open, closed, presence of pawn tension or existence of pawn breaks) dictates entirely where the potential for incursions into the enemy position lies.

You will often hear top commentators say "this is a typical King's Indian structure", by which an astute viewer will expect a white queenside expansion (the pawn wedge c4-d5 dictates that white should break with c5) and an equally venomous attack by black based on a kingside pawn storm.

There are 5 main families of pawn structures:

1. Carlsbad/IQP (think Caro Exchange, or Panov, or most Tarrasch defense pos)

2. Open Sicilian structures (cxd4)

3. French structures (open or closed)

4. Ruy Lopez/Benoni/KID semi closed formations

5. Grünfeld type

Each one is connected to a particular arrangement of pieces or typical maneuvers. The best way to learn about these is to watch master games.

 

[LA Guy]

So, let's draw an analogy here. Pawn structure = skeleton. The shape of the bones and the joints determines how the muscles and tendons should be attached.

It is the same way with chess pieces. They are the muscles of your position. The pawn structure (open, closed, presence of pawn tension or existence of pawn breaks) dictates entirely where the potential for incursions into the enemy position lies.

You will often hear top commentators say "this is a typical King's Indian structure", by which an astute viewer will expect a white queenside expansion (the pawn wedge c4-d5 dictates that white should break with c5) and an equally venomous attack by black based on a kingside pawn storm.

There are 5 main families of pawn structures:

1. Carlsbad/IQP (think Caro Exchange, or Panov, or most Tarrasch defense pos)

2. Open Sicilian structures (cxd4)

3. French structures (open or closed)

4. Ruy Lopez/Benoni/KID semi closed formations

5. Grünfeld type

Each one is connected to a particular arrangement of pieces or typical maneuvers. The best way to learn about these is to watch master games.

Would you mind linking to a couple of instructive games for these structures? I do find that I learn a lot from good commentary, and then a guide (like you gave) for what to look and listen for. Thanks, that was very useful!

 

[SchachMundialECapital]

Would you mind linking to a couple of instructive games for these structures? I do find that I learn a lot from good commentary, and then a guide (like you gave) for what to look and listen for. Thanks, that was very useful!

This seems like a reasonable starting point. It is a playlist that contains many examples and different structures.

 

[pasadena man]

Would you mind linking to a couple of instructive games for these structures? I do find that I learn a lot from good commentary, and then a guide (like you gave) for what to look and listen for. Thanks, that was very useful!

I would highly recommend Mauricio Flores Rios’ Chess Structure, A Grandmaster’s Guide on pawn structure; here’s a link to the intro and a sample chapter:

https://www.newinchess.com/media/wysiwyg/product_pdf/7495.pdf

He takes 28 common pawn structures, and then briefly (in a couple of pages) describes what the most common plans for White and Black are. The balance of the chapter consists of some examples of the major approaches for both sides.

It’s one of the best chess books I have read in the last 20 years; so good that I couldn’t believe it hadn’t been written, or touched on, before. His doctoral studies are related to machine learning I believe, so he is probably looking at patterns in a different way than prior grandmasters; and very fruitfully.

I would have paid anything to have encountered this book early in my playing career; I’m sure it would have been worth 50-70 + rating points OTB.

Flores Rios clearly makes several important points, germane to the limitations of the evaluation bar. One move in a position may result in a higher evaluation, but sometimes other factors are more important:

First, how much can one side’s position be improved going forward versus the opponent’s position? Occasionally the lower rated position may have several potential approaches to improve his position, whereas the higher rated position doesn’t, he is pretty much maxed out.

Second, which move/position is more suited to the player’s basic style and temperament, attacking vs. conservative/risk adverse, etc.

Third, which side is easier to play? Very important point which was not obvious to me for a long time. In a sharp position one side may have a technical advantage but needs to find a number of “only moves” to convert the point. Conversely, the other side may have a position that, in broad terms, “plays itself” in finding the best overall approach and likely candidate moves.

 

[SchachMundialECapital]

+1 for the Flores Rios recommendation for a really systematic way of approaching pawn structures. I do believe that it's more geared towards tournament players rather than casual players, so let's say catering to the 1700-2200 FIDE interval.

 

[LA Guy]

+1 for the Flores Rios recommendation for a really systematic way of approaching pawn structures. I do believe that it's more geared towards tournament players rather than casual players, so let's say catering to the 1700-2200 FIDE interval.

I’m definitely not even close yet, but I’d like to get to that level.

 

[double00]

a pair of games :



magnus and hans rematch ! the commentary is hilarious . magnus , ever the master , refuses to develop and then forces a draw via back-to-back brilliant moves . truly amazing .

also :



lol