The What Are You Wearing Today (WAYWT) Discussion Thread, Part II

[endorphinz]

Yeah, I mean, where would we be without black Americans appropriating black American culture...

GIVE ME A FUCKIN BREAK
First off Jimi was born in Seattle... a long way from the Delta... or even Chicago

but you’re right... Peter Green , Mick Taylor or Clapton would’ve served the discussion better

never the **** again

 

[MarkI]

Best Made
Brooks Bros x2
Norse Projects
Vans x Nigel Cabourn

 

[el Bert]

Serious question: is this appropriate in 2022? Is it cultural appropriation?

this is me and my closest association is an appreciation of art and Americana

sorry if this post is a sensitive topic for some and I apologize for my ignorance. Looking to be educated about this matter.

I personally don’t think so, I think if you made it, you’re treading the line. No one is out here thinking that if you’re wearing a brand like Visvim that treads the line on cultural appropriation. Headdress are worn by many people in the Americas. If you were wearing a sweater with an Aztec wearing a headdress I wouldn’t think that you’re appropriating my culture. It might look dumb but that’s up to you. The funny thing about Americana that it’s difficult to point wether it’s culturally appropriating in an of itself because American culture really is built on a foundation of immigration and constitutional rights. There’s no real way on pointing at what “American” culture is.

 

[zissou]

@flipstah without knowing the brand or it’s owners, it’s hard to say whether it is appropriation or not. If it’s from some big corporate white-owned brand, then yes, it’s likely cultural appropriation.

Here's the thing: A lot of the native tribes sell handmade sweaters and other items which they've been making for hundreds upon hundreds of years. They want people like me to buy and use them. Just wearing a sweater, which they've been wearing for hundreds of years, could be considered "cultural appropriation." It's a slippery slope.

It’s not the wearing that is cultural appropriation. Wearing a sweater like flipstah's may be insensitive, but it’s the using of Native American imagery by a non-Native American group for profit that’s cultural appropriation.

Is the offensive part that a company is making a profit from a minority culture imaginery, and only that culture should have the right to do so? And that whoever buys that stuff is supporting those practices? So if someone from that culture is making that stuff and you buy from them it’d be ok? But then how would someoene else know where the item came from?

Yes, this is it exactly. it’s not just an American thing, though. I’ve seen plenty of cultural appropriation of NA imagery from brands in Europe and Japan. Maybe we’re more aware here in the US because it’s where the vast majority of Native Americans live.

OH WAIT... I do wear COWBOY boots & I’m not a cowboy and I do wear a Yankees cap and I’m only a Yankee in my dreams.

Comments like this show that you don’t really care to understand cultural appropriation.

Maybe those of you who think cultural appropriation is just about feelings can spend some time learning about the broader implications of the practice throughout history and not just in the immediate lens of today’s fashion.

Take, for instance, the Navajo Nation not far from where I live. Did you know that because of fucked up decades-old US laws that it’s nearly impossible for much of the Navajo Nation to even have running water in their homes? How about the high infection rates of Covid that led to Doctors Without Borders(!) going to treat the Navajo Nation. Maybe learn more and then see how you feel about buying a hand knit in China RRL shawl collar cardigan covered in Navajo designs.

 

[whipcord]

It’s not the wearing that is cultural appropriation. Wearing a sweater like that may be insensitive, but it’s the using of Native American imagery by a non-Native American group for profit that’s cultural appropriation.

Interesting. So as an artist I'm not allowed to sell a painting of mine which depicts anybody other than my own culture? Where's this rules book, anyway?

 

[zissou]

 

[MickeyPunch]

Yes, this is it exactly. it’s not just an American thing, though. I’ve seen plenty of cultural appropriation of NA imagery from brands in Europe and Japan. Maybe we’re more aware here in the US because it’s where the vast majority of Native Americans live.

Oh I didn’t mean Europeans don’t do cultural appropiation, but that the whole concept is unkown to most. If not for this forum I wouldn’t think in a million years that wearing a sweater depicting a native american looking badass on top of his horse would be offensive to anyone. I’m probably the most naive person in the world but I honest to god would think if anything a native american would feel proud. So I’m sure here we do more of this because we’re not even aware of it for the most part.

And it’s not a native american thing either I guess, IIRC the first time I heard of the term was reading an article about a white girl wearing dreadlocks and how that was offensive to (some?) black people.

This was brought up recently in another thread re. RRL making native american inspired stuff. Again even being aware of the concept of cultural appropiation it has to be pointed out to me. Like I see Ralph Lauren as the most american brand ever doing tons of american motifs (mostly the flag I guess) in their clothes, and what’s more american than the native americans? OTOH if they didn’t do any native american inspired stuff I feel someone would complain about how native americans are not represented in an americana brand.

 

[zissou]

That's exactly how RRL wants you to feel. Part of the attraction of RRL is the classic cowboys and indians allure of the Wild West. The thing is, a lot of the designs that RRL uses are not inspired by Native Americans. They are straight up copies. Take, for instance, RRL's jacquard vest. It's a great example of cultural appropriation in which a white-owned global brand copies the style and traditional craft of Chimayo weavers, reproduces it with cheap labor, and sells it for seven times the cost.

 

[el Bert]

This was brought up recently in another thread re. RRL making native american inspired stuff. Again even being aware of the concept of cultural appropiation it has to be pointed out to me. Like I see Ralph Lauren as the most american brand ever doing tons of american motifs (mostly the flag I guess) in their clothes, and what’s more american than the native americans? OTOH if they didn’t do any native american inspired stuff I feel someone would complain about how native americans are not represented in an americana brand.

Native tribes wouldn’t complain, pretty sure they consider themselves their own nation(s) as does the US in some context. They’re considered in some ways sovereign. They govern themselves.

 

[MickeyPunch]

Native tribes wouldn’t complain, pretty sure they consider themselves their own nation(s) as does the US in some context. They’re considered in some ways sovereign. They govern themselves.

Thanks I wasn’t even aware of this but makes total sense, even if they’re an essential (albeit involuntary) part of the american country’s history.

 

[penanceroyaltea]

View attachment 1749699

That drape on the shacket! Love it

 

[MickeyPunch]

That's exactly how RRL wants you to feel. Part of the attraction of RRL is the classic cowboys and indians allure of the Wild West. The thing is, a lot of the designs that RRL uses are not inspired by Native Americans. They are straight up copies. Take, for instance, RRL's jacquard vest. It's a great example of cultural appropriation in which a white-owned global brand copies the style and traditional craft of Chimayo weavers, reproduces it with cheap labor, and sells it for seven times the cost.

Oh I’m sure the company does a lot of nasty stuff like that (I kinda expect it from most big companies, keeping shareholders happy is the only factor), so they probably have ripped off smaller brands and styles regardless of whether they come from a minority culture or not, I don’t hold them as saints. I don’t have a RL specific example but SLP did this with a shirt.

Also googling chimayo weaving history I found this, which seems to say it’s not of native american origins but spanish, if anything they were the first ones to rip them off.

It originated from a Spanish pioneer who settled north from Newspain (now Mexico) in the 17th and early 18th centuries. Weaving techniques and knowledge have been passed down from generation to generation in a self-sufficient life in remote areas.
In 1918, a general store with Chimayo weaving products was opened, and after World War II, a Chimayo weaving specialty store was opened, and continues to this day.
It is partly influenced by the indigenous Native American culture, but has a completely different origin.

 

[patsnat]

It seems like most of you guys are arguing about whether you think cultural appropriation is acceptable, and not whether this specific example is appropriation. This middle aged white guy doesn’t think it is. If OP was the one on the horse wearing the headdress: yup. If the image on the sweater was a random white guy on a horse wearing a headdress: also yes. But that’s ridiculous.
This feels more like displaying a photograph on a wall. It may be offensive, but I wouldn’t call it appropriation. Regardless, he’s already out there in public wearing it, making the real question “should I have really looked this happy wearing this?”.

 

[endorphinz]

endorphinz said:
OH WAIT... I do wear COWBOY boots & I’m not a cowboy and I do wear a Yankees cap and I’m only a Yankee in my dreams.

Comments like this show that you don’t really care to understand cultural appropriation.

Maybe those of you who think cultural appropriation is just about feelings can spend some time learning about the broader implications of the practice throughout history and not just in the immediate lens of today’s fashion.

Take, for instance, the Navajo Nation not far from where I live. Did you know that because of fucked up decades-old US laws that it’s nearly impossible for much of the Navajo Nation to even have running water in their homes? How about the high infection rates of Covid that led to Doctors Without Borders(!) going to treat the Navajo Nation. Maybe learn more and then see how you feel about buying a hand knit in China RRL shawl collar cardigan covered in Navajo designs.

I’m not sure what running water or Covid infection rates have to do with cultural appropriation. I don’t believe anyone disputes the US government’s mistreatment of Native Americans

Americana is not my aesthetic but using your logic I guess no one should wear a shawl collar cardigan covered in Navajo designs except Navajos or the very few who were able to procure one of the very few hand made sweaters knitted by Navajos.

I guess people should feel guilty for eating Italian food sold & made by Albanians.

all those restaurants on Diners, Drive Ins & Dives that feature food made by people who are not of that foods culture should be censured .

I’m a secular Jew. If I saw a “g o y” walking around with a yarmulke or a tallt or both, I wouldn’t feel disrespected or angry. I would say WTF but it wouldn’t bother me.

I understand the negativity associated with the thinking of a culture profiting from another culture but don’t necessarily believe that practice is exploitive

I dunno, in my isolated view, any opportunity to expand any culture should be viewed as positive.

I try to show respect to everyone & believe I do a pretty good job but in today’s PC world, that challenge is becoming increasingly difficult.

one more thing: ANYONE COPYING ANY DESIGN FROM ANYONE IS NOT COOL

 

[K. Nights]

I was actually thinking about this recently while looking at Red Rabbit Co.'s website. Would their jewelry be considered cultural appropriation? They are quite obviously inspired by Native American designs, but I'm pretty sure there is no Native involvement (correct me if I'm wrong about this).