The Watch Appreciation Thread - Part two (Rolex, Patek Philippe, Audemars Piguet, Jaeger LeCoultre,

[Imyouricecreamman]

The Seiko Tuna and Victorinox Inox series are great modern analog toolwatches.
The Tuna monocoque construction hasn't changed much since it's conception in the seventies. The recessed crystal makes it less prone to contact with objects and the shroud takes a lot of the damage and lessens the impact of sideways blows.

The INOX has a standard screw in caseback, but the specs are impressive and they made some crazy videos showing off how robust it was for the launch.

 

[Dino944]

10 years ago no one considered Tudor a watch worthy of thousands. But then Rolex insanity ensued and it pulled Tudor out of complete obscurity. I remember those vintage Tudors on Ebay that none was bidding on. Then it was known as a watch with Rolex case and cheapest movement for the working stiffs, I am not sure what it is now.

P.S. One thing that def. links Rolex and Tudor is verbose dials. Who woulda thought that in 2018 writing 'Tiger' and 'Prince' on the same dial would be a selling feature.

'Perpetual Prince' and 'Oyster Tiger', Lewis Carroll is laughing from his grave.

Actually, years ago, a Tudor was a bargain relative to what some other ETA and Valjoux 7750 watches were selling for. Also the cleaner earlier "Big block" Tudor chronos sell for significantly more than the "Tudor Tigers" ...so I'm not sure having "Tiger" on the dial is a selling point.

Sure no one was paying what they pay for Tudors today. However, the same could be said about most watches, including Pateks, APs, Rolex, Omegas etc.

Pateks could be bought all day long with a 30-40% discount well into about 2005. Prior to the Nautilus 3712 coming out, no one was lining up to buy a Nautilus, and none sold for more than list price. AP didn't have any special edition's selling for more than MSRP, until Arnold Schwarzenegger made the "End of Days" Offshore famous, and there were no waiting lists for Jumbos10+ years ago. Rolex, I could easily get 10% off every steel Rolex except for Daytonas up until around 2012. Omega's 1st batch of Snoopy Speedmasters from around the early to mid 2000s was a failure. They sat in dealer showcases for me for over a year, and were discounted. In addition, none of their special edition Speedmasters were selling out quickly or trading for more than MSRP...that is a phenomena of the last few years.

So you can let your feeling about Tudor past market prices color your opinion of them today...but then why shouldn't one do the same for all other brands?

How depleted are SS Rolex in USA?

I doubt that there is an opportunity for me to flip a Rolex as part of a PP purchase in the USA as I doubt that I can recoup list plus 22% percent on a Rolex. Even a brand new one. But am I overlooking anything?

Unless you can get a SS Daytona or SS Pepsi GMT, you would probably be wasting your time trying to buy a SS Rolex and flip it here for more than MSRP +22%.

 

[LA Guy]

For robust I have my baby tuna. It has handled everything I threw at it so far, although I didn't do the hammering a nail into the screen or throwing it on a wall tests that I tried on my G-shocks. I don't wear it because it's too heavy for any actual activities, even on a nylon velcro strap (which I prefer for e.g. windsurfing so my arm doesn't get attached to anything at speed).

Talking of which I bought a G-shock second hand 15 years ago and about 3-4 years ago the battery (solar) finally got to 1 bar, then died. The display stayed just as bright until the end. I think that's why the higher end quartz movements like in the Darth Tuna will tick every 2 seconds as a low battery indicator.

But to be honest it would be a big stretch for me to not wear the G-shock in any kind of dynamic setting. I guess the other exception is to count laps at the pool. The Pebble HR sort of does it automatically with the swim.com app, but it often adds an extra lap. You could probably make a case for going automatic if you're into some sort of historical reenactment sport; if I owned a classic yawl instead of begging a spot on others' I'd think about a Chichester oyster? maybe.

Wait, people actually nail their G-shocks? I have hardened mineral glass face protectors plus bull bars to protect my midmasters, since the face seems a bit big and exposed to me, but again, that's just me. I actually really like streetwear, so the very organic relationship between G-shocks and collaborations with all sorts of people and brands (I am still looking for a non-insanely priced Eric Clapton early, early G-steel at a non-insane price) fascinates me. And they are super functional as well.

I think that I will use my super fast IWC to time some workouts. It will lift my spirits to know that I'm actually faster than I was when I was 25.

 

[LA Guy]

Actually, years ago, a Tudor was a bargain relative to what some other ETA and Valjoux 7750 watches were selling for. Also the cleaner earlier "Big block" Tudor chronos sell for significantly more than the "Tudor Tigers" ...so I'm not sure having "Tiger" on the dial is a selling point.

Sure no one was paying what they pay for Tudors today. However, the same could be said about most watches, including Pateks, APs, Rolex, Omegas etc.

Pateks could be bought all day long with a 30-40% discount well into about 2005. Prior to the Nautilus 3712 coming out, no one was lining up to buy a Nautilus, and none sold for more than list price. AP didn't have any special edition's selling for more than MSRP, until Arnold Schwarzenegger made the "End of Days" Offshore famous, and there were no waiting lists for Jumbos10+ years ago. Rolex, I could easily get 10% off every steel Rolex except for Daytonas up until around 2012. Omega's 1st batch of Snoopy Speedmasters from around the early to mid 2000s was a failure. They sat in dealer showcases for me for over a year, and were discounted. In addition, none of their special edition Speedmasters were selling out quickly or trading for more than MSRP...that is a phenomena of the last few years.

So you can let your feeling about Tudor past market prices color your opinion of them today...but then why shouldn't one do the same for all other brands?

Unless you can get a SS Daytona or SS Pepsi GMT, you would probably be wasting your time trying to buy a SS Rolex and flip it here for more than MSRP +22%.

Why, from your vantage point, have watches become so popular in the past few years?

Re. Tudor, I guess that I always knew that they were a Rolex "diffusion line". Sorry, I'm not sure what the term is in watch world, but in the fashion world, that's what they would be called. Oddly, I actually like the branding on Tudors a little more, but I can't get over that fact. I'm probably just shallow.

 

[LA Guy]

In other news, I just bought my wife's Christmas present (yes, I'm one of those guys who prepares super early,) a Cartier Tank Basculante:

So, I'm out of watch purchasing for at least a month or two.

 

[Medwed]

Addressing Dino's point without quoting the whole post. Yes it did happen to all those Swiss staple brands and many more but it should have never happen to something like Tudor simply because of what it is and what it represents. A diffusion line is a good way to call it on the clothing forum.
Regarding ETA 7750 Chronographs in decent steel cases, I am wearing one right now, it cost me 169 Eur on Ebay and it is 38mm. I am not suggesting Rolex diffusion line should be sold for that, but what I am suggesting is that approximately 99% of Tudor's perceived value is in marketing.
If Rolex = Corneliani Sartoriale, => Tudor = Corneliani CC.

 

[LA Guy]

Addressing Dino's point without quoting the whole post. Yes it did happen to all those Swiss staple brands and many more but it should have never happen to something like Tudor simply because of what it is and what it represents. A diffusion line is a good way to call it on the clothing forum.
Regarding ETA 7750 Chronographs in decent steel cases, I am wearing one right now, it cost me 169 Eur on Ebay and it is 38mm. I am not suggesting Rolex diffusion line should be sold for that, but what I am suggesting is that approximately 99% of Tudor's perceived value is in marketing.
If Rolex = Corneliani Sartoriale, => Tudor = Corneliani CC.

Don't the modern day Tudors use Rolex in-house movements now? I am not at all against diffusion lines. Maybe that's a poor analogy.

There are some great diffusion lines with a distinctly different POV, like Rick Owen's Drkshdw line, which is much more denim based, and back in the day, Emporio Armani was a much more sportswear, much cooler, younger, brand, than Giorgio Armani mainline RTW Borgonuovo 21 branded clothing.

A lot of the Tudors. on the other hand, look like iconic Rolex pieces. I'm not an expert by any means, but doesn't the Black Bay look a lot like a Rolex Submariner? I do like some of the colors (like this below) more than the Rolex equivalents though. The bronze on the dial just, imo, looks nicer than a lot of sub dials.

 

[UnFacconable]

I am finding that mechanical watches are more prone to weird things happening to them. Right now, I need to send an IWC for maintenance because it is running really fast, and it's unclear why.

May be magnetized. That happened to me and I bought a demagnetizer on ebay which worked like a charm. Would be a pretty easy first thing to check before sending off to service. Of course if you had a local watchmaker or were traveling soon anywhere that did, it would be an easy while-you-wait fix for them.

 

[Dino944]

Why, from your vantage point, have watches become so popular in the past few years?

Re. Tudor, I guess that I always knew that they were a Rolex "diffusion line". Sorry, I'm not sure what the term is in watch world, but in the fashion world, that's what they would be called. Oddly, I actually like the branding on Tudors a little more, but I can't get over that fact. I'm probably just shallow.

Well, the watch market in general is stronger than it was years ago, and that brought in a lot of speculators looking for areas to invest their funds, particularly when the stock market was very volatile several years ago. People who might have put money in the market or real estate, start seeing stories about watches doing well at auctions and then that becomes a place to park their funds. People find Patek's or Rolex out of the price range and then they look for other alternatives to buy that may in the long run accrue in value. This happens in the sport car market too...the leader generally tends to be Ferraris...price go up and all of the sudden, some people are priced out of vintage Ferraris, so they buy vintage Maseratis, Aston Martins, etc...and the prices on those start to go up as good examples for sale start to dry up. Even with less experienced buyers who are not necessarily collectors or investors read an article about a new Daytona being a watch you can flip for a profit, and that sounds pretty good to someone who had planned to spend 10-15K on a watch anyway.

I suppose a diffusion line is a nice way to describe, what I always considered their "Entry level line." Cartier has had something similar with their Must de Cartier line in the 1980s or the Tank Solos today.

In other news, I just bought my wife's Christmas present (yes, I'm one of those guys who prepares super early, a Cartier Tank Basculante.

So, I'm out of watch purchasing for at least a month or two.

Congrats to the Mrs! Great watch and an interesting alternative the the JLC Reverso. I'm sure she will enjoy it.

Regarding ETA 7750 Chronographs in decent steel cases, I am wearing one right now, it cost me 169 Eur on Ebay and it is 38mm. I am not suggesting Rolex diffusion line should be sold for that, but what I am suggesting is that approximately 99% of Tudor's perceived value is in marketing.
If Rolex = Corneliani Sartoriale, => Tudor = Corneliani CC.

I get what you are saying, and hence on some level it has limited my interest in owning something powered by a Valjoux 7750. However, its also important to keep in mind in the early 90's a new Tudor Big Block was around $1,500. One could just as easily have spent that or much more on a ETA/Valjoux 7750 powered Omega, IWC, Breitling etc. Actually, that IWC 3706 I posted a photo of is powered by a Valjoux 7750 and on that bracelet it carried an MSRP of $5,500 back in the early to mid 90's. Now you could get a discount of 30-35% back then from an AD, but it would still have cost you more than twice the cost of a Tudor Big Block. In addition, beyond the case, bracelet, sapphire crystal, another other items used by Tudor, IWC, Omega, Breitling, most of the movements are probably more finely finished, and in some cases (like the old 1980s-2000s IWC DaVinci or GST Perpetual Calendars) modified compared to what is currently on your wrist.

 

[Mr. Moo]

Cartier is a great go-to for wifely gifts. Kinda wish my wife didn't know that.

 

[Medwed]

In addition, beyond the case, bracelet, sapphire crystal, another other items used by Tudor, IWC, Omega, Breitling, most of the movements are probably more finely finished, and in some cases (like the old 1980s-2000s IWC DaVinci or GST Perpetual Calendars) modified compared to what is currently on your wrist.

I have learned from my watchmaker that many of those nicely finished, blued-screwed ETA movements are just ETA upper line and they are off the shelf. Forgot the French word he use to describe them; just looked it up: 'ETA Elabore'. Elaborate ETA...and then custom modifications are done by Dubois Depraz company. Big houses come and ask and then Depraz just sketches, designs and builds their 'In-house' movement, which is simply standard movement off the shelf with Depraz modules.
That is what he told me.

 

[Dino944]

I have learned from my watchmaker that many of those nicely finished, blued-screwed ETA movements are just ETA upper line and they are off the shelf. Forgot the French word he use to describe them; just looked it up: 'ETA Elabore'. Elaborate ETA...and then custom modifications are done by Dubois Depraz company. Big houses come and ask and then Depraz just sketches, designs and builds their 'In-house' movement, which is simply standard movement off the shelf with Depraz modules.
That is what he told me.

There are many inexpensive ETA and Val 7750 powered watches out there, so that is probably true of many watches, but not all. Remember, there is probably little to no finishing on your watch, which you mentioned is under $170. The company just buys it fully assembled, and they pop it into a watch case. My understanding is a company like Cartier or IWC buy an ebauche (a kit, not fully assembled) and they use what they want and finish it to their standards. Again, less expensive watches, probably less finishing and/little or no modifications. However, as mentioned, I've never really wanted an watch with an ETA/Valjoux 7750 ...so it matters little to me.

My point was merely that Tudor's Big Block was probably one of the better offerings for something using a 7750 back in the day.

 

[brax]

Unless you can get a SS Daytona or SS Pepsi GMT, you would probably be wasting your time trying to buy a SS Rolex and flip it here for more than MSRP +22%.

Thanks. That’s what I figured but just wanted to be certain.

 

[BLAUGRANA]

Thoughts on Tudor? I've tried on a few of the Black Bays, and do actually like them, but can't shake that "It's better to wear a real Timex than a fake Rolex" feeling I get.

Don't the modern day Tudors use Rolex in-house movements now? I am not at all against diffusion lines. Maybe that's a poor analogy.

There are some great diffusion lines with a distinctly different POV, like Rick Owen's Drkshdw line, which is much more denim based, and back in the day, Emporio Armani was a much more sportswear, much cooler, younger, brand, than Giorgio Armani mainline RTW Borgonuovo 21 branded clothing.

A lot of the Tudors. on the other hand, look like iconic Rolex pieces. I'm not an expert by any means, but doesn't the Black Bay look a lot like a Rolex Submariner? I do like some of the colors (like this below) more than the Rolex equivalents though. The bronze on the dial just, imo, looks nicer than a lot of sub dials.

View attachment 1060201

Why, from your vantage point, have watches become so popular in the past few years?

Re. Tudor, I guess that I always knew that they were a Rolex "diffusion line". Sorry, I'm not sure what the term is in watch world, but in the fashion world, that's what they would be called. Oddly, I actually like the branding on Tudors a little more, but I can't get over that fact. I'm probably just shallow.

I actually quite like Tudor. I don't own one just yet, but I could see myself getting one some day if they continue to improve on their case sizes.

For me getting a Tudor isn't the equivalent of getting a "fake" Rolex. Tudor has credibility as a real tool watch historically. The Marine Nationale issued them back in the day. I would say it's a personal decision based on what your aesthetic preference is and/or potentially your budget. I've heard multiple collectors on Hodinkee Radio essentially say that they don't like what Rolex has become and that they prefer Tudor. I personally prefer Rolex and am on the waiting list for a few of their current models, but I understand as generally speaking Rolex is more "blingy" than it used to be.

Sure the Black Bay looks like a Submariner. I would say a lot of dive watches have similarities though. I think if you said that say 50 years ago it'd be a more accurate statement and indeed the Tudor dive watch used to be called "Submariner". Now though it seems to me that it's a lot like an older Tudor Sub.

The Black Bays are great and are good value. I like the dials too. The snowflake hand can be quite polarizing though. The issue I have with the Black Bay you showed is that the mid case is too thick. There's no definition there. A Speedmaster is as thick, thicker I think, but based on the side profile you wouldn't think so. I think this is in part down to the big crown. Another thing I don't like about them is the use of the shield on the dial as opposed to the rose. I'm hoping they rose is brought back to the Black Bay Fifty Eight. I'm also hoping they offer the same bezel/dial options in the Black Bay Fifty Eight that they do in the standard Black Bay.

At the end of the day there's nothing like seeing one in the metal and trying them on.

In other news, I just bought my wife's Christmas present (yes, I'm one of those guys who prepares super early,) a Cartier Tank Basculante:

So, I'm out of watch purchasing for at least a month or two.

Yeah right. You got that for her so you can wear it yourself.

 

[Dino944]

Another thing I don't like about them is the use of the shield on the dial as opposed to the rose. I'm hoping they rose is brought back to the Black Bay Fifty Eight.

Yeah right. You got that for her so you can wear it yourself.

I agree with a lot of what you said regarding Tudor other than the rose. This is merely a subjective issue, but I've never liked the rose logo even on vintage pieces. Personally, I think the shield is simpler, cleaner, better looking, it alone has been associated with Tudor for nearly 50 years, not to mention when Tudor started using a logo, it was a rose inside a shield...so it's not as if the rose predates the shield.

Anyway, I also liked your quote that he got the Tank Basculante so he can wear it himself...although I can't blame him!