The Watch Appreciation Thread - Part two (Rolex, Patek Philippe, Audemars Piguet, Jaeger LeCoultre,

[Belligero]

[...]Even as recently as 20 years ago there were more high end companies using outsourced movements. I think the idea that a watch using an inhouse movement is better than an outsourced movements often overlooks the idea that not all are created equally. Sales people tend to emphasize this fact as they often are just sales people who know little beyond what the sales brochure tells them.

I've never felt that having an inhouse movement was the end all be all of a watch or a reason to buy a particular watch. Sure it can help justify the cost of a watch, or be an example of commitment to horology, and the level of quality that one gets when buying watch X. In more modest price ranges, it might also be nice to know that the movement powering your $5K watch isn't largely similar to that found in a $700 watch. However, there have been some outstanding outsourced movements from brands like Lemania, JLC, Piaget, AP etc. For example Patek used Lemania CH27 movements in the 5070 and 3970. You probably wouldn't have found the Lemania base that was used in those Pateks in anything else that had an MSRP that was under $20K (so you might find the base also used in some higher end Breguets, VCs and maybe one or two others). In addition, there are collector who will tell you that the calibers used in those Pateks were of such high levels of quality and workmanship, that they rival any inhouse movements made by major high end manufacturers. I've even seen some say, that Patek's newer automatic inhouse chronograph movements are simply not finished to as high a standard was what was used in the 5070 and 3970. Patek developed their in house chronograph because then they could control costs and supply.

None of my dress watches use an in house movement. However, I chose watches which used high grade base calibers from JLC, F.Piguet, and Piaget. In fact one watch I own in a rectangular case uses a rectangular movement. In watches made around 2005 or so, most rectangular watches that used movements (even Patek and AP ) that were small round movements (sometimes from ladies watches) because it was cheaper than developing a movement specific to a particular case. I'm not saying that the movements used in the rectangular Patek or AP weren't nice...merely that they were used as a cost saving measure so they are not anything really special.

There are great watches with movements that were outsourced and great watches with inhouse movements. Its important to remember that there can be vast differences in quality and price and that one shouldn't lump all in house movements or all outsourced movements into a single category of either being in improvement or a downgrade to a watch or a brand.

Yes, there's certainly a difference between the old-school tradition of starting with an ébauche from a high-quality movement supplier and hand finishing/decorating it to a Geneva Seal standard, and the common practice of lazily tossing in a ready-made ETA movement or one of its generic clones.

In-house can be desirable if it's done right, but it's no guarantee of superior quality in and of itself; you have to consider each movement on its own merits instead of by a simplistic term that's often misunderstood and misused. Also, having ETA, Valfleurier or one of the other specialist producers to design and manufacture a movement with a different company's name on it shouldn't really count as in-house.

Using the example of Patek Philippe, I generally prefer the older outsourced movements to the new "Patek Seal" ones that lack independent quality checks and are far more mass-produced than their predecessors. (That, and their older watches tend to be better-looking.)

 

[Omega Male]

Wow, you drop out for a month and it's work catching up!

So far SF sucks far less than this forum suggested it would. Perhaps this is because we are out in Marin.

5711 still doing sterling duty as "Only Watch".

 

[Misterg12]

Favorite beater.

 

[Mr Tewkesbury]

^^Very helpful. Thanks.


Thanks Dino. I think that makes sense. I bought a couple of pieces to commemorate the birth of my children; which i plan to give to them when they graduate college (assuming they don't live in my basement). I think, I won't over think it, and keep a golden rod in there; but won't obsess over it.

PSA - Everyone here knows I'm a sucker for a Heuer chronograph. Someone just listed a Heuer Skipper (autavia version) that looks pretty much unworn. Lucky timing given the recent uptick in interest in the Skipper model specifically.



http://www.ebay.com/itm/HEUER-SKIPP...507582?hash=item41caee94fe:g:FSoAAOSwagNZbxkV

View attachment 819062

That is a rather interesting Tag.
Never paid attention to the brand as I consider them too commercial a watch. Thank you for bringing this model to my attention, very nice watch on the surface.

 

[no frills]

Using the example of Patek Philippe, I generally prefer the older outsourced movements to the new "Patek Seal" ones that lack independent quality checks and are far more mass-produced than their predecessors. (That, and their older watches tend to be better-looking.)

I have no problems at all with my older outsourced CH 27-70 movements in my old, discontinued, but better looking 3970s.

 

[bigbadbuff]

A 116520 Daytona could really be had from an AD for $6500 11 years ago??? If correct that's almost a 100% increase in cost in an insanely short amount of time.

The speculative aspect of watches have killed a lot of the fun for me lately. Sure, there are some pieces I like that are still under the radar and can be had for a good price pre-owned, but literally anything Rolex sport is just laughably insane right now. Seeing 116520 Daytonas creep 2-3k in less than 1 year is not great, neither is seeing Zenith models go up double that in the same time frame.

 

[Belligero]

A 116520 Daytona could really be had from an AD for $6500 11 years ago??? If correct that's almost a 100% increase in cost in an insanely short amount of time.

The speculative aspect of watches have killed a lot of the fun for me lately. Sure, there are some pieces I like that are still under the radar and can be had for a good price pre-owned, but literally anything Rolex sport is just laughably insane right now. Seeing 116520 Daytonas creep 2-3k in less than 1 year is not great, neither is seeing Zenith models go up double that in the same time frame.

True. Not that I'm complaining; I think I got a bit lucky on this one last year:

image credit: horologer

 

[Dino944]

A 116520 Daytona could really be had from an AD for $6500 11 years ago??? If correct that's almost a 100% increase in cost in an insanely short amount of time.

The speculative aspect of watches have killed a lot of the fun for me lately. Sure, there are some pieces I like that are still under the radar and can be had for a good price pre-owned, but literally anything Rolex sport is just laughably insane right now. Seeing 116520 Daytonas creep 2-3k in less than 1 year is not great, neither is seeing Zenith models go up double that in the same time frame.

Yes, $6,500 was the MSRP and that's what I paid for a brand new 116520 from an AD back then. You should keep in mind part of the reason Rolex raised the price, was because they saw speculators, gray dealers and a few ADs selling them brand new or unworn for 3-4K over list price. While I hate price hikes, you can't blame Rolex for saying, why should the speculators, grays, and some AD's make all that additional profit. Once pricing on 116520s hit the $10K range it put a huge dent in the speculator flipping market. People didn't want to pay $10+ $2K to 3K or more for 116520s, plus they had been around for about 9 years so there was a good supply of mint condition used ones available to consumers.

 

[bdavro23]

I am not a speculator and I never plan on flipping any watch that I purchase. The only Rolex I have is a 14270 Explorer which will be a lifer for me. I did however, get a great deal on it and am very happy with the value I feel I got from the transaction. I think that is the biggest component for me: perceived value. I think an in house movement, rightly or wrongly offer some people a little bit more justification to make a purchase or stretch their budget a bit. I include myself in that group for many scenarios.

 

[bigbadbuff]

You should keep in mind part of the reason Rolex raised the price, was because they saw speculators, gray dealers and a few ADs selling them brand new or unworn for 3-4K over list price. While I hate price hikes, you can't blame Rolex for saying, why should the speculators, grays, and some AD's make all that additional profit.

If that history holds, another will be coming then, given the 116500s are selling for at least 3-4k over list.

 

[BLAUGRANA]

If that history holds, another will be coming then, given the 116500s are selling for at least 3-4k over list.

That could be the case. I would think it'd be a bit wait and see or at least a gradual move in that direction. Still I could it see it happening which I would guess means that at some point it plateaus.

 

[robw]

Does anyone know how Rolex prices are in Canada compared to the US? My son will be in Toronto in a couple of weeks and has been saving up (plus some help from Mom and Dad) for an Explorer 1. Wondering if the stronger dollar makes it worthwhile.

Thanks

 

[Texasmade]

Does anyone know how Rolex prices are in Canada compared to the US? My son will be in Toronto in a couple of weeks and has been saving up (plus some help from Mom and Dad) for an Explorer 1. Wondering if the stronger dollar makes it worthwhile.

Thanks

From the rolex forums. Keep in mind that Toronto has a 13% tax rate and if you don't have a credit card with free FX you'll get hit with another 3%.

 

[TheFoo]

Who went to the Patek exhibition in NYC? Holy ****. Awesome experience and incredible showing of good will (and marketing prowess). Tried to take some photos, but they are all terrible. Must hand it to Patek. No other maker could pull off such an event with this level of credibility and success--not even Rolex (mainly due to shorter history and narrower focus).

My earlier post was not meant as a defense of Patek--though I do think a lot of the popular online criticism of the company/brand is misplaced.

I wanted to spur a discussion of what is important in a watch. On that topic, I think there is over-emphasis on incremental finishing quality, particularly at the upper echelons of the market. Design/style, history, service, serviceability, etc., are critical. I would not sacrifice any of those things in any meaningful amount for the sake of slightly sharper chamfering that can only be distinguished through a loupe. For example, there are a lot of amazingly talented independent watchmakers that are universally praised for their finishing, but which also make amazingly ugly watches. Moreover, many of the greatest watchmakers are not associated with the greatest finishing. Historical Breguet is the legend that it is because of mechanical innovation and design, not for its finishing (which was perfectly fine, but nothing to brag about on its own). F.P. Journe follows Breguet's example and focuses on mechanical innovating and problem-solving. Journe finishing is good, but not exceptional. Yet, they are without debate some of the greatest and most interesting watches being made today. It would be silly to critique the finishing--it's good enough.

Related, it seems many popular perceptions of finishing quality aren't well grounded to begin with. It has often been said, for example, that Lange watches are better finished than Patek, Vacheron, etc. I have seen very, very little evidence of this. There are a couple of visual examples here and there cutting both ways, but that is hardly indicative. Are people confusing ornateness (screwed chatons, engraved balance cocks, etc.) with refinement? Many watch journalists certainly do. I'm not saying the finishing of a Lange isn't excellent. I am saying it is not obviously better than its key competitors' in any meaningful way. Anyway, to really compare finishing, you'd have to disassemble the movement to see the unseen parts.

 

[firenze_rob]

@Mr Tewkesbury - take a look at the website "on the dash" and you can see where the brand has been. Biver has shown himself adept at marketing the Heuer heritage (sans TAG). The recent Monaco and Autavia reissues, look great.