The Watch Appreciation Thread - Part two (Rolex, Patek Philippe, Audemars Piguet, Jaeger LeCoultre,

[Ambulance Chaser]

Tudor missed a big opportunity by not going with square hours markers. Maybe it didn't want to make a watch too close to the original, but if the original worked, why not?

 

[9thsymph]

I've been out of the hobby for a few years, and just dipping my toes back in the water - and have to say, really impressed with how Tudor is doing now-a-days.

I still wish that "The Crown" could marry the vintage sensibilities of Tudor with the restraint of Rolex, and release a no-date Submariner with more-reasonable proportions but no gilt (even after 5-6 years away, I still cannot stand the maxi case, and remain "not-a-big-fan" of the faux-tina). However, while before I leaned more towards Rolex than Tudor, a lot of Tudor's new novelties are pretty awesome - specifically, the BB58 (blue and black) are fantastic watches, having a near-perfect case size, an in-house movement, and coming in at half the price. Moreover, consider what else you get - a ceramic bezel, white-gold surrounds, etc. - these are not really features that move the needle for me.

View attachment 1431255

Yeah, the Rolex case/lug shape is just too square for me. I really love the Rolex bezel, though. Anyway, per your point recently about the hype surrounding steal watches in general - the price was also a factor pushing me toward the Tudor, as I just feel like the difference I'd be paying (and waiting) for a sub seems driven more by the hype-scarcity-branding aspect, rather than the actual quality of the watch (don't get me wrong...I think the Rolex is outstanding, but inflated in some ways when compared to the Tudor...and yes, I was waitlisted for the Tudor BB58, but it was only 3 months...). I also wonder if Rolex, as the parent of Tudor, is using the Black Bay to push up prices on the Rolex sports models and effectively make them, for me, an overly-precious tool watch...

So for me, yeah, Tudor won the no nonsense, versatile, sport/dive category. Having said that, I would like to get a GMT down the line and would probably opt for a Rolex rather than the Tudor, with it's "slab" vibe (though only at MSRP...haha...like that will ever happen...). However, if Tudor releases a BB58-sized version of the GMT without jacking up the price significantly, then I suppose I would go with Tudor again...

Everything I have written above should be understood as resulting from my near complete disregard for investment potential. I only buy watches to wear and I have never sold, or intend to sell a watch...

 

[9thsymph]

Tudor missed a big opportunity by not going with square hours markers. Maybe it didn't want to make a watch too close to the original, but if the original worked, why not?

I'm actually glad they skipped the squares. It would have been too matchy-matchy with the original (as you mention), but also too 70s-brutalism for my taste.

 

[Gus]

For fun I thought I'd post this here. I traded a 1959 Gretsch 6119 guitar for this Rolex Sub in 1996. The guitar was then worth about $2,000-$2,500 and the Rolex Sub was 3 years old and had a slight chip on the crystal. The Gretsch is now worth maybe $3,500- $4,000 today. A '96 Rolex Sub appears to be worth somewhere around $8,500 or so.

 

[Dino944]

the price was also a factor pushing me toward the Tudor, as I just feel like the difference I'd be paying (and waiting) for a sub seems driven more by the hype-scarcity-branding aspect, rather than the actual quality of the watch (don't get me wrong...I think the Rolex is outstanding, but inflated in some ways when compared to the Tudor...and yes, I was waitlisted for the Tudor BB58, but it was only 3 months...). I also wonder if Rolex, as the parent of Tudor, is using the Black Bay to push up prices on the Rolex sports models and effectively make them, for me, an overly-precious tool watch...

I would say they are both great watches. Each has its pros and cons. Yes, the lugs are an issue for many people. I have a GMT 2 BLNR with that case and it takes a bit of getting used to compared to my other Rolex watches. However, I get used to it and forget about it after wearing it for a day or two. The Tudor definitely wins on price, and it is a lot of watch for the money.

However, for me even with the Sub having bigger lugs than necessary, it it still the quintessential diving watch. I like the bigger notches on the bezel and the bigger "Teeth" on the crown. They have been on Subs and Tudors for decades. I also like the shoulders to protect the crown. Years ago, I read an online review regarding the once new IWC GST 2000 diving watch. One of the first responses to the review said, without shoulders to protect the crown it isn't a real diving watch. The person responding to the review had worked on rigs in the ocean and said, without shoulders, just bang the watch against a rig, a reef or something solid and you now have a point of entry for water...so it is a watch he would never buy as a diving watch. Don't get me wrong, I realize most of us aren't using these watches for diving, but I feel it is a design sacrifice in an effort to make the Tudor modern retro design. Even vintage Tudor Subs such as the famous "Snowflake" model or the 1980s "Tudor Prince Submariners" had shoulders. On the Sub I also like the glossy finish of the dial and bezel, along with the white gold marker outlines and the white writing...more than the matte bezel dial, gold writing and gold bezel markers on a steel watch. I'm still a bit divided in terms of whether I like the retro rivet bracelet of the Tudor. I like the Tudor, I just wish maybe in someways it was more of a reissue of the "Snowflake" with some modern touches, rather than a modern watch that is trying to go all retro by losing the case shoulders, having a red triangle on the bezel pearl, and the vintage guilt type gold writing on the dial/bezel and lum surrounds. Most of that is subjective, but when we are considering spending a significant sum on a watch, then the details matter especially since one will be seeing these details every time we look down at our wrist and see either a Sub or Black Bay on our wrist.

As for the Rolex using the Black Bay to push up prices, I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. Rolex AFAIK, only had one price increase around January of this year. Prior to that, the MSRP has remained the same at least 5 years. If you are speaking of prices of used Rolex watches, why would Rolex care? They don't make any money on the sale of used Rolex watches regardless of their value.

 

[Phileas Fogg]

The MSRP of a Rolex sub, Daytona or GMT is almost irrelevant. Most of these watches are purchased on the gray market at a substantial markup.

I’m not saying everyone walking around with these watches purchased it on the gray market, but with the relative scarcity of these watches available to the general public through the AD route, the easiest way to own one is to pay the additional, gray market premium.

 

[9thsymph]

I would say they are both great watches. Each has its pros and cons. Yes, the lugs are an issue for many people. I have a GMT 2 BLNR with that case and it takes a bit of getting used to compared to my other Rolex watches. However, I get used to it and forget about it after wearing it for a day or two. The Tudor definitely wins on price, and it is a lot of watch for the money.

However, for me even with the Sub having bigger lugs than necessary, it it still the quintessential diving watch. I like the bigger notches on the bezel and the bigger "Teeth" on the crown. They have been on Subs and Tudors for decades. I also like the shoulders to protect the crown. Years ago, I read an online review regarding the once new IWC GST 2000 diving watch. One of the first responses to the review said, without shoulders to protect the crown it isn't a real diving watch. The person responding to the review had worked on rigs in the ocean and said, without shoulders, just bang the watch against a rig, a reef or something solid and you now have a point of entry for water...so it is a watch he would never buy as a diving watch. Don't get me wrong, I realize most of us aren't using these watches for diving, but I feel it is a design sacrifice in an effort to make the Tudor modern retro design. Even vintage Tudor Subs such as the famous "Snowflake" model or the 1980s "Tudor Prince Submariners" had shoulders. On the Sub I also like the glossy finish of the dial and bezel, along with the white gold marker outlines and the white writing...more than the matte bezel dial, gold writing and gold bezel markers on a steel watch. I'm still a bit divided in terms of whether I like the retro rivet bracelet of the Tudor. I like the Tudor, I just wish maybe in someways it was more of a reissue of the "Snowflake" with some modern touches, rather than a modern watch that is trying to go all retro by losing the case shoulders, having a red triangle on the bezel pearl, and the vintage guilt type gold writing on the dial/bezel and lum surrounds. Most of that is subjective, but when we are considering spending a significant sum on a watch, then the details matter especially since one will be seeing these details every time we look down at our wrist and see either a Sub or Black Bay on our wrist.

As for the Rolex using the Black Bay to push up prices, I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. Rolex AFAIK, only had one price increase around January of this year. Prior to that, the MSRP has remained the same at least 5 years. If you are speaking of prices of used Rolex watches, why would Rolex care? They don't make any money on the sale of used Rolex watches regardless of their value.

Yeah, in a more abstracted comparison (or price and other social factors being equal) I would say the Rolex sub is the better watch, but when folding in those other factors, I prefer the Tudor. A "tool" can have many functions outside of "work", obviously. For me, a diver just needs to be comfortable at the beach, pool, boat, etc...I want it to be tough enough for moderately hard "play", but not too fancy either (and here is where personal taste comes in: a new Rolex at current prices just feels too precious, FOR ME). Having said all that, I do prefer the Rolex bezel/notches...

My price question was based on a guess that when Rolex releases an updated SS sub, it will dramatically more expensive (I could be totally wrong...pure speculation...)

 

[Dino944]

Yes, but Rolex doesn't make anything based on the gray dealers, or used pricing.

Yes, plenty of people buy on the gray market. Still, I do have friends that have purchased steel GMTs and Daytonas from ADs this year. I still haven't gotten a call from my AD about them, but it does happen.

 

[mimo]

Rolex love the high used prices because they feed the feeling of specialness and perpetuate the demand for new models. But most people don't buy new watches on the grey market - there simply isn't the supply where Rolex is concerned, hence the preposterous mark-ups. Rolex controls their grey market better than pretty much any other maker, as the slash and burn of independent Rolex dealers over recent years, has demonstrated. They want to know where every watch is going. Some dealers will cheat, and eventually they will probably lose their dealership. It's happened to literally hundreds of dealers over the last few years.

As for the "scarcity", it's a myth. Rolex do not make rare watches. They make popular watches, and make them more popular by slowing down delivery by just a tiny bit - like a 1% drop in global oil production - to create an atmosphere of panic and drive demand. And it works. But, if you want a Pepsi or a Hulk or a Daytona or whatever, you absolutely can have one at retail. Just be a regular customer of a decent outlet, and after a little while they will prioritise you and get you what you want - not just because of what you spend, but mainly because by that point they know they can trust you.

 

[Dino944]

For me, a diver just needs to be comfortable at the beach, pool, boat, etc...I want it to be tough enough for moderately hard "play", but not too fancy either (and here is where personal taste comes in: a new Rolex at current prices just feels too precious, FOR ME).

I can understand that. I have a few Rolex watches, but the only one I ever wear to the beach or a pool is my black dial 16570 Explorer II. I've had it for almost 19 years. It was a wedding present, and has been on many vacations (boats, pools, beaches) and back then they were a heck of a lot less than they cost today.

 

[bdavro23]

I really like a lot of what Tudor is putting out, especially the BB58. With that said, the case thickness generally is a killer for me, and dont get me started on the rivet bracelet...

 

[9thsymph]

I'm curious what you guys recommend as respected watch/horological journals, blogs, vids, etc...

I'm less and less interested in Hodinkee and Revolution as a resources, but am still looking to keep up on the industry and new releases, etc...

Where do you guys get your interwebs info?

 

[9thsymph]

I really like a lot of what Tudor is putting out, especially the BB58. With that said, the case thickness generally is a killer for me, and dont get me started on the rivet bracelet...

I got the BB58 _because_ of it's case thickness (it's quite slim at 11.9mm, down from 14.6 on the other Black Bays divers...Speedmaster too wears much "thicker" in my opinion). The rivets completely disapear when worn, but I feel you on this critique...

 

[SmellBlind]

I'm curious what you guys recommend as respected watch/horological journals, blogs, vids, etc...

I'm less and less interested in Hodinkee and Revolution as a resources, but am still looking to keep up on the industry and new releases, etc...

Where do you guys get your interwebs info?

watchesbySJX is good. Straightforward writing and *gasp* sometimes critical of the watches they review. Significant amount of knowledge of and respect for horology comes through in their writing as well. They don't cover every single release, but certainly the ones that matter.

 

[tigerpac]

I like a lot of the people at watchonista.com. Covers the gambit and has some stuff outside the box. I also like a lot of the people at Hodinkee though so take my recommendation as you will