The State of Black Tie: Your Observations

[Amidé]

Chatting with friends from the US I hadn’t seen in quite some time, during a recent black tie event. Wearing a velvet peak lapel diner jacket.. without vents I might add..!

 

[Andy57]

Chatting with friends from the US I hadn’t seen in quite some time, during a recent black tie event. Wearing a velvet peak lapel diner jacket.. without vents I might add..!

View attachment 1880071

That was a very sharp look that night, Amidé.

 

[Amidé]

That was a very sharp look that night, Amidé.

Glad you liked it Andy! Nothing like your impeccable self obviously, but roughly keeping within tradition.

 

[JohnMRobie]

Because those rationalizations are really just excuses for laziness. Vents add nothing in terms of real utility to a dinner jacket and detract a great deal. One of the things black tie is trying to accomplish is to set a clear demarcation between day wear and evening wear. So, bringing elements of day wear into black tie defeats that objective. A ventless jacket creates a cleaner line, which is part of the allure of the look. If you don't want to create that sense of verticality, then why bother at all?

The idea that a ventless jacket somehow restricts movement is pure bullshit.

Wearing a dinner jacket with vents won't immediately transform you into a country bumpkin, but it does propel you down that road. To complete the transformation, you should have two buttons or more on the jacket and notch lapels.

Black tie "rules" aren't really rules, of course. But they are guidelines that indicate how to achieve that evening look that is different from work clothes (meaning, in this instance, a business suit), how to do it right, and, to a certain extent knowing why these guidelines exist, what is trying to be achieved, helps a great deal. If one does not wish to follow the guidelines, then, really, why bother at all? Why not do it right, because one can, for its own sake? So, while you may not actually be a country bumpkin, why advertise to the world that you don't know any better?

IMO this matters even more so when getting something made and you’re not at the whims of whatever RTW happens to fit you and the stylistic decisions their designers make. I’m not sure why someone would intentionally make a worse choice when they aren’t forced into it.

 

[hpreston]

Vents: absolutely not, ever. A no vent jacket is correct for black tie, is perfectly comfortable, does not prevent you putting your hand in your pocket (not that you should stand around with your hands in your pockets anyway). If you go with vents (one or two, doesn't matter) you will look like a rube.

Agree that a properly tailored ventless jacket is perfectly comfortable, and allows for plenty of mobility (dancing, etc.)

However, there is precedent even amongst UK Bespoke Houses for double vents in formalwear. Even Connery wore a dinner jacket with double vents tailored by Anthony Sinclair in his first outing as Bond.

Andy,

Why are you so vehemently opposed to side vents on dinner jackets? I've heard many sources, including the Black Tie Guide, Michael Andrews Bespoke, and He Spoke Style say that side vents are an acceptable modern deviation, defensible for gentlemen who move about, or permissible for other reasons.

I acknowledge that ventless dinner jackets are most classic, but I disagree that donning a dinner jacket with two vents immediately transforms the wearer into a country bumpkin.

I am not sure you will get much love here on SF for the Gentlemen's Gazette Black Tie Guide or He Spoke Style.... I have no knowledge of Michael Andrews, but that shop doesn't seem to come up on SF very often (looking through the Bespoke Thread and others....)

Check out writings by Flusser or Boyer

Acknowledge that SF is not the end-all be all of the discussion, but you are here asking questions.....

Because those rationalizations are really just excuses for laziness. Vents add nothing in terms of real utility to a dinner jacket and detract a great deal. One of the things black tie is trying to accomplish is to set a clear demarcation between day wear and evening wear. So, bringing elements of day wear into black tie defeats that objective. A ventless jacket creates a cleaner line, which is part of the allure of the look. If you don't want to create that sense of verticality, then why bother at all?

The idea that a ventless jacket somehow restricts movement is pure bullshit.

Wearing a dinner jacket with vents won't immediately transform you into a country bumpkin, but it does propel you down that road. To complete the transformation, you should have two buttons or more on the jacket and notch lapels.

Black tie "rules" aren't really rules, of course. But they are guidelines that indicate how to achieve that evening look that is different from work clothes (meaning, in this instance, a business suit), how to do it right, and, to a certain extent knowing why these guidelines exist, what is trying to be achieved, helps a great deal. If one does not wish to follow the guidelines, then, really, why bother at all? Why not do it right, because one can, for its own sake? So, while you may not actually be a country bumpkin, why advertise to the world that you don't know any better?

Totally agree on the movement restriction comment above. Ventless has nothing to do comfort, or being able to move.

IMO this matters even more so when getting something made and you’re not at the whims of whatever RTW happens to fit you and the stylistic decisions their designers make. I’m not sure why someone would intentionally make a worse choice when they aren’t forced into it.

I think there is a slight nuance. To Andy's point, yes, ventless is the way to go, if having something made, there is really no reason to have a custom (or made to measure) dinner jacket made, and have it done intentionally, with vents.

However, in the RTW arena, I might excuse side vents. To Andy's point, "Wearing a dinner jacket with vents won't immediately transform you into a country bumpkin, but it does propel you down that road."
If you are going RTW and the jacket has vents, then everything else in the ensemble needs to be correct; peak or shawl lapel (no notches), no "fun" tie or cummerbund, proper shoes, proper shirt etc.

Full disclosure. I recently snagged a RTW cream shawl collared dinner jacket for a steal. It is mostly correct, shawl collar, appropriate buttons (MOP) for cream, but it has double vents. It fits me very well for OTR, and only needed slight shortening of sleeves/sleeve buttons to be wearable. I am debating having he vents closed to make it as correct as possible, but also think if everything else I might wear it with follows the guidelines, that one detail might not make that much of a difference...

YMMV of course.


Fascinating conversation here.

Acknowledge, this in all my opinion, I speak for no one but myself.

Not sure if my response actually adds to the conversation, but I think there are some nuances to tease out here.

 

[Zerase]

IMO this matters even more so when getting something made and you’re not at the whims of whatever RTW happens to fit you and the stylistic decisions their designers make. I’m not sure why someone would intentionally make a worse choice when they aren’t forced into it.

I got sad when the guy I used to make my raglan coat (which is awesome) made a DB dinner jacket with a single vent

 

[JohnMRobie]

I think there is a slight nuance. To Andy's point, yes, ventless is the way to go, if having something made, there is really no reason to have a custom (or made to measure) dinner jacket made, and have it done intentionally, with vents.

However, in the RTW arena, I might excuse side vents. To Andy's point, "Wearing a dinner jacket with vents won't immediately transform you into a country bumpkin, but it does propel you down that road."
If you are going RTW and the jacket has vents, then everything else in the ensemble needs to be correct; peak or shawl lapel (no notches), no "fun" tie or cummerbund, proper shoes, proper shirt etc.

Thanks for putting it more eloquently than I. I was attempting to provide some more latitude with RTW because fit is still king and we are at the whims of whatever the maker that fits us or we have access to decided to make that season.

 

[Andy57]

Agree that a properly tailored ventless jacket is perfectly comfortable, and allows for plenty of mobility (dancing, etc.)

However, there is precedent even amongst UK Bespoke Houses for double vents in formalwear. Even Connery wore a dinner jacket with double vents tailored by Anthony Sinclair in his first outing as Bond.

I think this is a case of the tail wagging the dog. Tailors are not authoritative when it comes to style. Yes, they have a house style, but in the case of a dinner jacket that applies much less. If I commission a dinner jacket to be made, then I simply expect it to be made the way I want it to be made. I am perfectly happy to listen to suggestions or recommendations, but if those recommendations conflict with what I want, then the tailor will make the jacket the way I want or I'll go elsewhere. I honestly don't think it would ever come to that, but I do expect things to be made the way I specify. I don't care what UK bespoke houses have as precedents for double vented dinner jackets, nor do I care what Sinclair made for Connery.

I am not sure you will get much love here on SF for the Gentlemen's Gazette Black Tie Guide or He Spoke Style.... I have no knowledge of Michael Andrews, but that shop doesn't seem to come up on SF very often (looking through the Bespoke Thread and others....)

I didn't want to go there, but both those sources have their idiosyncrasies.

However, in the RTW arena, I might excuse side vents. To Andy's point, "Wearing a dinner jacket with vents won't immediately transform you into a country bumpkin, but it does propel you down that road."
If you are going RTW and the jacket has vents, then everything else in the ensemble needs to be correct; peak or shawl lapel (no notches), no "fun" tie or cummerbund, proper shoes, proper shirt etc.

Part of the problem with vents on a dinner jacket is precisely because it makes the jacket immediately resemble a rented jacket. So why go to the trouble of purchasing a nice RTW jacket or commissioning a bespoke version and have it look pretty much like something you'd rent?

 

[DavidJordan]

Because those rationalizations are really just excuses for laziness. Vents add nothing in terms of real utility to a dinner jacket and detract a great deal. One of the things black tie is trying to accomplish is to set a clear demarcation between day wear and evening wear. So, bringing elements of day wear into black tie defeats that objective. A ventless jacket creates a cleaner line, which is part of the allure of the look. If you don't want to create that sense of verticality, then why bother at all?

The idea that a ventless jacket somehow restricts movement is pure bullshit.

Wearing a dinner jacket with vents won't immediately transform you into a country bumpkin, but it does propel you down that road. To complete the transformation, you should have two buttons or more on the jacket and notch lapels.

Black tie "rules" aren't really rules, of course. But they are guidelines that indicate how to achieve that evening look that is different from work clothes (meaning, in this instance, a business suit), how to do it right, and, to a certain extent knowing why these guidelines exist, what is trying to be achieved, helps a great deal. If one does not wish to follow the guidelines, then, really, why bother at all? Why not do it right, because one can, for its own sake? So, while you may not actually be a country bumpkin, why advertise to the world that you don't know any better?

Thank you for your insights. I think I am now leaning towards going ventless.

 

[DavidJordan]

Meanwhile, some black tie looks out in the wild. First, in Florence, my wife and I demonstrating our vacuousness by pointing at a picture of us in evening wear, while in evening wear, the evening before Pitti starts:
View attachment 1880056
And we bumped into Internet superstar @UrbanComposition, too:
View attachment 1880057
Frustratingly, I didn't get a good shot at the following evening's Plaza Uomo party, so skipping ahead to Wednesday and the WMBrown event:
View attachment 1880058
The venue ran out of Negronis, so we make do with Gin & Tonics:
View attachment 1880059
And finally, Saturday evening, in Como:
View attachment 1880060
With Negronis in hand, as one does.

With two jackets and two pairs of trousers, it is therefore possible to attend four events without repeating an outfit, although there is absolutely nothing wrong with wearing the same classic black look every time. I just choose not to.

Great shots! Hope you enjoyed Pitti. I would like to attend someday.

 

[DavidJordan]

Chatting with friends from the US I hadn’t seen in quite some time, during a recent black tie event. Wearing a velvet peak lapel diner jacket.. without vents I might add..!

View attachment 1880071

Very nice outfit!

 

[Andy57]

Great shots! Hope you enjoyed Pitti. I would like to attend someday.

Pitti is a lot of fun and, to be clear, for us it is an entirely social event. But it's very, very enjoyable. And it's in Florence! What's not to like?

 

[gimpwiz]

Part of the problem with vents on a dinner jacket is precisely because it makes the jacket immediately resemble a rented jacket. So why go to the trouble of purchasing a nice RTW jacket [...] and have it look pretty much like something you'd rent?

The one answer I wouldn't turn my nose at is: cost. If a person happens to, for example, snag an excellently made and cut dinner jacket, worn once, for fifty bucks, and it has two vents... Well. I'd say go to a tailor and have it fixed. But I can understand it. Especially if otherwise it fits perfectly without needing alteration.

If someone commissions one with vents, or pays top dollar for RTW/MTM with vents, well. Like you said. A person is entitled to offer money in exchange for goods or services; a tailor or a shop is entitled to take their money and make exactly what the person is asking to have made or sell what they want to buy. I wouldn't do it. Certainly an extremely well regarded bespoke shop (or many, or all of them) having done so in the past doesn't make it correct (though it's just as easy to say that it doesn't make it incorrect, either.)

DavidJordan, if you're going to all this trouble, I certainly suggest no vents.



hpreston: In the earlier couple hundred pages of this thread, people heavily recommended the black tie guide. At some point it got purchased and filled with ads. I am not sure if the content has changed other than that.

 

[Andy57]

The one answer I wouldn't turn my nose at is: cost. If a person happens to, for example, snag an excellently made and cut dinner jacket, worn once, for fifty bucks, and it has two vents... Well. I'd say go to a tailor and have it fixed. But I can understand it. Especially if otherwise it fits perfectly without needing alteration.

I would not disagree.

 

[brax]

View attachment 1880060

Awesome pictures from an awesome event. Any chance you’d get a pair of slippers with a “A57” monogram? That would be next level stuff! Please, please, please.