The State of Black Tie: Your Observations

[upr_crust]

Looks amazing, but you really need a proper scarf and gloves to complete the outfit

As it is, I have an ivory silk evening scarf from Turnbull, but I find it dull in comparison to the scarf shown in the photo (also from Turnbull). Gloves, I do not have, as of the moment, but those can be easily obtained when I am in London, should I choose to buy them.

 

[poorsod]

For outerwear, for the purposes of travel, I've opted for a lighter weight overcoat, as the coat will be seeing service both in London and in Granada, Spain, and the black coat which I own will be too heavy (in insulative qualities and sheer weight) to be schlepped to two foreign cities. Ditto for my black Homburg - I have opted for my navy Lock homburg, to match the overcoat as shown, and because it suits my head and face much better than the black one.

I am still debating the pros and cons of acquiring a top hat, though that would be an acquisition taking either a vast amount of time (combing through vintage shops) or money (combing through Lock, Laird, and Bates in London).

I have a collapsible top hat from Frack & Co in Vienna. Much cheaper than trying to find a vintage top hat. They also sell a cloak to go with the white tie rig.

I’ve considered looking for a vintage top hat for my morning coat rig but so far I’ve not been invited to the Royal enclosure at the Ascot.

 

[DavidJordan]

Hello Everyone:

This is my first SF post. I am enjoying reading this thread and thought I would chime in with my black tie plans for my belated wedding ceremony and reception in Honolulu, Hawaii in May 2023. My wife and I had a small wedding ceremony in January 2022 due to COVID.

This will be my first time wearing black tie since my high school senior prom in 2010. :O

Below are (1) four questions; (2) a description of my ceremony attire; and (3) a description of my reception attire.

Let me know if you have any questions, comments, or edits, thank you!

Questions:

I have four questions:

1. For the (1) black dinner jacket; and (2) ivory dinner jacket, should I go with side vents or no vents?
2. For the (1) black dinner jacket; and (2) ivory dinner jacket, how wide should I make the lapels? I am deciding between 4" and 4.25".
3. For the (1) black dinner jacket; and (2) ivory dinner jacket, what kind of lining should I have, in terms of (a) structure (e.g., unlined, half, full, butterfly), (b) material (e.g., silk or bemberg), and (c) pattern (e.g., plain, artwork, repeating pattern)?
4. For the ivory dinner jacket, should I wear my 40 mm stainless steel dive watch? I know that would not be formal or 'correct', but I am considering wearing it for reasons discussed below.

For the ceremony, I will wear:

Jacket: Michael Andrews Bespoke, made-to-measure black one-button (fabric-covered) broad (4-4.25") satin peak lapel dinner jacket with a suppressed waist made of Vitale Barberis Canonico mohair and wool with silk satin gauntlet cuffs and four fabric-covered buttons on each sleeve. I am debating whether to go ventless or to have side vents. I will be wearing a medium sized red carnation in the boutonniere. No silk trimmings on either the breast or straight (not hacking) jetted hip pockets. Shoulder will be either 40" or 41".

Pants: Matching MAB black pants, with a single silk satin galon, 2-inch strip of silk satin encircling the waist, side adjusters, and suspender buttons. Waist size is 29", but might order the pants 30" as I will be wearing braces (see below).

Bow-Tie: Le Noeud Papillon, self-tie adjustable modified butterfly bow-tie in Mogador silk satin (I received this several months back and have practiced tying it a few times, it is my first self-tie bow tie).

Shirt: MAB, white marcella pique bib-front shirt, with square French cuffs and three buttonholes showing above the cummerbund.

Waist Covering: Turnbull & Asser, black pleated silk satin cummerbund (this was just delivered today, I am excited to open the box and inspect this fine specimen).

Braces: Albert Thurston, white moire formal braces, with nickel fittings.

Pocket Square: Either a white silk pocket square by Charvet, or a white linen pocket square.

Shoes: George Cleverley, ready-to-wear "Harry" model black patent leather plain-toe oxfords with no broguing, with satin shoestrings pulled in a parallel arrangement.

Socks: Undecided, but I will be wearing black over-the-calf silk socks.

Cufflinks and Shirt Studs: Codis Maya, smoky mother of pearl centers with white rhodium backings.

Watch: No watch.

Ring: Lev Jewelry Co. platinum wedding band.

Other accessories: None.

For the reception, I will continue wearing the above, with the exception of the replacements noted below:

Jacket: MAB, made-to-measure ivory wool and mohair one-button self-faced broad (4-4.25") peak lapel dinner jacket with self-gauntlet cuffs, suppressed waist, and four buttons on each sleeves. As with the black dinner jacket above, I am debating whether to go ventless or to have side vents. There will be no silk on this jacket.

Shirt: MAB, white plisse shirt, with square French cuffs and three buttonholes showing above the cummerbund.

Watch: 40mm stainless steel time-only (with seconds hand and rotatable bezel) dive watch with black face. I could be convinced to not wear this. I know it is not proper, but it has some sentimental value as it was a graduation gift from my parents, and I wear it when I snorkel with my wife. Also, the reception venue is on the water, and people dive in water, and it is a dive watch.

Please let me know your thoughts, thank you!

-David

 

[acconrad]

1. No vents
2. 4" lapel
3. fully-lined (black), half-lined (ivory), satin, plain
4. no watch

this is all based on the most classical definition of black tie

 

[hpreston]

Concur with @acconrad

1. No vents
2. 4" lapel (unless you are very broad in the chest, say, 44/46 inch chest or bigger, then maybe 4.25)
3. Black go fully-lined, ivory go half-lined. Bemberg, plain on both.
4. Definitely, no to the watch.

understand changing jackets between ceremony and reception, but you’re going to change your shirt too?

 

[DavidJordan]

1. No vents
2. 4" lapel
3. fully-lined (black), half-lined (ivory), satin, plain
4. no watch

this is all based on the most classical definition of black tie

Thank you for the input! Would a 4" lapel look "average" or "wide"? For reference I am 5'8" tall, 40" shoulder, 29" waist.

I want to have wide lapels.

Also, would a butterfly lining be permissible for the ivory dinner jacket, or no?

 

[DavidJordan]

Concur with @acconrad

1. No vents
2. 4" lapel (unless you are very broad in the chest, say, 44/46 inch chest or bigger, then maybe 4.25)
3. Black go fully-lined, ivory go half-lined. Bemberg, plain on both.
4. Definitely, no to the watch.

understand changing jackets between ceremony and reception, but you’re going to change your shirt too?

Thank you for the input! Would a 4" lapel look "average" or "wide"? For reference I am 5'8" tall, 40" shoulder, 29" waist.

I want to have wide lapels.

Also, would a butterfly lining be permissible for the ivory dinner jacket, or no?

Yes, I want to change shirts between the ceremony and reception. Unfortunately the ceremony venue is not air-conditioned, so I think I will be sweaty haha

 

[Veremund]

I have four questions:

1. For the (1) black dinner jacket; and (2) ivory dinner jacket, should I go with side vents or no vents?
2. For the (1) black dinner jacket; and (2) ivory dinner jacket, how wide should I make the lapels? I am deciding between 4" and 4.25".
3. For the (1) black dinner jacket; and (2) ivory dinner jacket, what kind of lining should I have, in terms of (a) structure (e.g., unlined, half, full, butterfly), (b) material (e.g., silk or bemberg), and (c) pattern (e.g., plain, artwork, repeating pattern)?
4. For the ivory dinner jacket, should I wear my 40 mm stainless steel dive watch? I know that would not be formal or 'correct', but I am considering wearing it for reasons discussed below.

1. Side vents
2. No difference, but it depends on your size.
3. No opinion.
4. No, wear a a very slim watch with a black leather band.

 

[classicalthunde]

Questions:

I have four questions:

1. For the (1) black dinner jacket; and (2) ivory dinner jacket, should I go with side vents or no vents?
2. For the (1) black dinner jacket; and (2) ivory dinner jacket, how wide should I make the lapels? I am deciding between 4" and 4.25".
3. For the (1) black dinner jacket; and (2) ivory dinner jacket, what kind of lining should I have, in terms of (a) structure (e.g., unlined, half, full, butterfly), (b) material (e.g., silk or bemberg), and (c) pattern (e.g., plain, artwork, repeating pattern)?
4. For the ivory dinner jacket, should I wear my 40 mm stainless steel dive watch? I know that would not be formal or 'correct', but I am considering wearing it for reasons discussed below.

1. No vents is technically 'correct', but I prefer vents in all my jackets as I tend stick my hands in my pockets. At this point, I think vents v. no vents is a preference and that vents no longer really make a black tie rig 'incorrect'
2. Well proportioned lapels should end halfway to your shoulder, maybe a bit larger for peak lapels and a bit narrower for shawl.
3. I would recommend full bemberg lining in a solid darker color.
4. Once again, like vents, I think this rule is outdated. I wear a GMT with my tux semi-frequently, and I think something like a classic submariner would work well too. I think the point is that it should be a relatively subdued watch (i.e. a wild Hublot might work on the red carpet but not at a standard black tie function)

 

[DavidJordan]

1. Side vents
2. No difference, but it depends on your size.
3. No opinion.
4. No, wear a a very slim watch with a black leather band.

thank you for your reply!

1. my lounge suits all have side vents, to what extent do ventless jackets inhibit movement/pants side pocket access? And are there other reasons to choose side vents over no vents?

2. I am 5'8", 40" shoulder, 29" waist.

3. ok

4. ok, I recognize that's the formal/proper option, but I do not have such a watch. I might just go watchless for both the ceremony and reception.

thanks again!

 

[DavidJordan]

1. No vents is technically 'correct', but I prefer vents in all my jackets as I tend stick my hands in my pockets. At this point, I think vents v. no vents is a preference and that vents no longer really make a black tie rig 'incorrect'
2. Well proportioned lapels should end halfway to your shoulder, maybe a bit larger for peak lapels and a bit narrower for shawl.
3. I would recommend full bemberg lining in a solid darker color.
4. Once again, like vents, I think this rule is outdated. I wear a GMT with my tux semi-frequently, and I think something like a classic submariner would work well too. I think the point is that it should be a relatively subdued watch (i.e. a wild Hublot might work on the red carpet but not at a standard black tie function)

Thank you, this is helpful.

1. Noted, I might go ventless on the black DJ. I am concerned that my somewhat thick butt might make a ventless jacket fit too tight.

2. Ok thank you, I will discuss with MAB.

3. Would you also recommend a darker solid color lining for the ivory dinner jacket? I would not want the lining to show through the light fabric, or for it to be too sharp of a contrast against the off white color.

4. Noted, what is the dial size and color of your GMT? Does it have a two-toned bezel? My dive watch is 40 mm and features a black dial with white indices. It does look pretty big on my thin wrists, but it will be hidden under my French cuff and jacket sleeve for most of the night. Also you mentioned "standard black tie function"—the wedding dress code is cocktail attire as I don't think many of my friends (except for one of my groomsmen, who has played in orchestral symphonies) own black tie rigs.

 

[gimpwiz]

General summary of the thread to your questions:

1.

Everyone (okay, almost everyone) in this thread who has worn a properly tailored (even if used/vintage/thrifted) jacket has said that ventless is fine, for both sitting and standing. There is a key here: properly tailored. Vented _can_ result in the usual thing where some of the fabric separates from the rest, making the vent obvious and to some unsightly or unseemly. Yet, there is much use of the phrase "venial sin," ie, a very minor sin, when discussing the double vent. However, the single center vent is verboten, because again to slightly misquote the thread, "you're not wearing a dinner suit while riding a horse."

I suspect you will find that ventless is fine, when properly tailored. Comfortable and not problematic. Even when putting your hands into your pants pockets occasionally, though admittedly that's where vents would be more useful.

General consensus seems to be that ventless makes a fine distinction from a lounge suit (business suit) with vents. "This is not what I wear to work; it is not just a black suit."

Earlier in this thread (somewhere in the high 400s I think), people were adamant that a big butt works great with ventless. Whereas vented just sticks out obviously.

2.

40" shoulder or 40" chest? In any event, the lapel width is always based on what looks best on your frame. Lapel width, gorge height, button stance, and your shoulders, chest, and waist: these are all part of one complete package. You can't really separate them...

However, there is obviously much variation in preferences. People of similar or identical size and shape may and do choose different lapels. Individuals choose different lapels on different jackets. With 40" shoulders I'd generally aim wider than narrower. If a shawl, there's a lot of options for shape, which inform width - you've basically got skinnier and wider lapels that are fairly U-shaped at the bottom and fairly straight through the chest; you've got more gradual curves; you've got very wide, almost circular/oval shapes; you've got fairly sharp bottoms; etc. Each of those may have different width and look best in a different width.

Best answer? Go figure out your favorite shape, or two, using online photos. Then talk to your tailor about your body shape, button stance, gorge height, etc. In this discussion, using your favorite photos for reference, you will surely find the right width.

With that said: if you were looking for a very simple answer, I think you will be just fine in a 4.00" or 4.25" for a classical peak lapel. Given your height and shoulder size, you could go for 4.50", even wider if you wanted the flash from it. Various brands, probably most notably Tom Ford, have made a name for themselves with very wide peak lapels. Obviously it has to fit the rest of the jacket and how it is cut to you.

3.

I would go full-lined, as is the general consensus, though a couple others in this thread seem to like half-lined for ivory. The material is really open and up to you; think about which linings run slightly cooler versus slightly hotter and your use case. A common bemberg lining is common for a good reason: pretty much everyone likes it well enough. If you want to get creative, there's a lot of options, talk to your tailor, but honestly as long as it doesn't cause any functional issues it doesn't really matter what you choose.

As for color, well, most people aren't going to see it. You can go ferrari red if you want. Rainbow iridescent paisley. Plain, stark black. Whatever. Key is that you like it - that you like it today, tomorrow, and five years from now. Would be a shame to go wild today and then think it's childish and silly in five years. Would also be a shame to go ultra conservative and then regret it. So figure out what you like best, and then go do it.

Obviously the safest options are dark grays, charcoals, blacks, midnight blues, etc. Dark neutral colors. With no or faint or subtle patterns. Will you regret a chance not taken using one of those? Or will you regret a flashy lining on a black jacket? Your call.

4.

Not technically correct but I am not sure anyone really cares. Especially if it's slim, I suspect even the pickiest contributors on this forum will give you a half-hearted "it's fine" if the rest of the clothes are on point. Your shoes seem correct, which is what everyone here complains about being the piece so many disappoint on, so I think they will forgive you a watch. Just don't have it blatantly out there hogging the spotlight. If possible, cutting your shirt and jacket to be slightly wider on the watch hand, as you would a normal shirt or jacket, can help.

 

[classicalthunde]

3. Would you also recommend a darker solid color lining for the ivory dinner jacket? I would not want the lining to show through the light fabric, or for it to be too sharp of a contrast against the off white color.

4. Noted, what is the dial size and color of your GMT? Does it have a two-toned bezel? My dive watch is 40 mm and features a black dial with white indices. It does look pretty big on my thin wrists, but it will be hidden under my French cuff and jacket sleeve for most of the night. Also you mentioned "standard black tie function"—the wedding dress code is cocktail attire as I don't think many of my friends (except for one of my groomsmen, who has played in orchestral symphonies) own black tie rigs.

3. I went with a dark purple for my black tuxedo, I think for an ivory DJ you would certainly want to go with something lighter (may be a pure white for some contrast, or a matching ivory/cream for a seamless look). At the baseline you dont want the lining to be a distraction from the outfit.

4. my watch is a 5-digit reference "Pepsi" Rolex GMT with the red and blue bezel, its definitively a sports watch but also subtle enough to go unnoticed. Is it 'proper' black tie to wear it with my tux, no. But, I wear it 98% of the time and 99% of the people I know haven't the slightest of basic black tie rules let alone one as subtle as not wearing a watch. As long as a) you want to and b) it fits under your shirt cuff I say go with it.

As @gimpwiz noted, your best bet is to bring some pics to MAB to show him what you're looking for. Below are my two favorite examples of a peak and shawl lapel dinner jackets. If it were me, this is the style and lapel proportions/shapes I would aim for (note how the lapel is a bit wider than the halfway mark on the peak, and a bit short of it on the shawl).

Anderson and Sheppard:

Huntsman:

 

[JohnMRobie]

Hello Everyone:

This is my first SF post. I am enjoying reading this thread and thought I would chime in with my black tie plans for my belated wedding ceremony and reception in Honolulu, Hawaii in May 2023. My wife and I had a small wedding ceremony in January 2022 due to COVID.

This will be my first time wearing black tie since my high school senior prom in 2010. :O

Below are (1) four questions; (2) a description of my ceremony attire; and (3) a description of my reception attire.

Let me know if you have any questions, comments, or edits, thank you!

Questions:

I have four questions:

1. For the (1) black dinner jacket; and (2) ivory dinner jacket, should I go with side vents or no vents?
2. For the (1) black dinner jacket; and (2) ivory dinner jacket, how wide should I make the lapels? I am deciding between 4" and 4.25".
3. For the (1) black dinner jacket; and (2) ivory dinner jacket, what kind of lining should I have, in terms of (a) structure (e.g., unlined, half, full, butterfly), (b) material (e.g., silk or bemberg), and (c) pattern (e.g., plain, artwork, repeating pattern)?
4. For the ivory dinner jacket, should I wear my 40 mm stainless steel dive watch? I know that would not be formal or 'correct', but I am considering wearing it for reasons discussed below.

For the ceremony, I will wear:

Jacket: Michael Andrews Bespoke, made-to-measure black one-button (fabric-covered) broad (4-4.25") satin peak lapel dinner jacket with a suppressed waist made of Vitale Barberis Canonico mohair and wool with silk satin gauntlet cuffs and four fabric-covered buttons on each sleeve. I am debating whether to go ventless or to have side vents. I will be wearing a medium sized red carnation in the boutonniere. No silk trimmings on either the breast or straight (not hacking) jetted hip pockets. Shoulder will be either 40" or 41".

Pants: Matching MAB black pants, with a single silk satin galon, 2-inch strip of silk satin encircling the waist, side adjusters, and suspender buttons. Waist size is 29", but might order the pants 30" as I will be wearing braces (see below).

Bow-Tie: Le Noeud Papillon, self-tie adjustable modified butterfly bow-tie in Mogador silk satin (I received this several months back and have practiced tying it a few times, it is my first self-tie bow tie).

Shirt: MAB, white marcella pique bib-front shirt, with square French cuffs and three buttonholes showing above the cummerbund.

Waist Covering: Turnbull & Asser, black pleated silk satin cummerbund (this was just delivered today, I am excited to open the box and inspect this fine specimen).

Braces: Albert Thurston, white moire formal braces, with nickel fittings.

Pocket Square: Either a white silk pocket square by Charvet, or a white linen pocket square.

Shoes: George Cleverley, ready-to-wear "Harry" model black patent leather plain-toe oxfords with no broguing, with satin shoestrings pulled in a parallel arrangement.

Socks: Undecided, but I will be wearing black over-the-calf silk socks.

Cufflinks and Shirt Studs: Codis Maya, smoky mother of pearl centers with white rhodium backings.

Watch: No watch.

Ring: Lev Jewelry Co. platinum wedding band.

Other accessories: None.

For the reception, I will continue wearing the above, with the exception of the replacements noted below:

Jacket: MAB, made-to-measure ivory wool and mohair one-button self-faced broad (4-4.25") peak lapel dinner jacket with self-gauntlet cuffs, suppressed waist, and four buttons on each sleeves. As with the black dinner jacket above, I am debating whether to go ventless or to have side vents. There will be no silk on this jacket.

Shirt: MAB, white plisse shirt, with square French cuffs and three buttonholes showing above the cummerbund.

Watch: 40mm stainless steel time-only (with seconds hand and rotatable bezel) dive watch with black face. I could be convinced to not wear this. I know it is not proper, but it has some sentimental value as it was a graduation gift from my parents, and I wear it when I snorkel with my wife. Also, the reception venue is on the water, and people dive in water, and it is a dive watch.

Please let me know your thoughts, thank you!

-David

1. No vents
2. Talk to your MTM guy about proportions
3. Black full lined, ivory half lined.
4. Ditch the watch for your wedding. The best man, planner and day of staff will keep you on schedule.

 

[Nick Charles]

Sounds like you'll look great which is the number one goal for your wedding day.

1) No vent is most correct and will look the best but 1-2 vents gives you more mobility for things like putting your arms around someone for a picture for example. These days, people are just impressed that you're wearing a tux at all.

4) As said before, no watch is needed. A minimal, black dress watch with no complications is acceptable if you feel you really need a watch. Dive watches, like snorkel tips, are a mismatch because they are inherently sport/casual while a tuxedo is the polar opposite. BUT, if you really want to wear a dive watch and your wife-to-be is on board. Go for it as it's your big day.

Bow-Tie: Le Noeud Papillon, self-tie adjustable modified butterfly bow-tie in Mogador silk satin (I received this several months back and have practiced tying it a few times, it is my first self-tie bow tie).
Just pre-tie the bow a week before so it can be slipped on when needed. Your wedding day isn't the time to be working on your bow tying skills.

Shoes: George Cleverley, ready-to-wear "Harry" model black patent leather plain-toe oxfords with no broguing, with satin shoestrings pulled in a parallel arrangement.
Very nice looking shoes. Personally, I would have recommended non-tie shoes as your mental state will be fuzzy and worrying about your shoe laces is just another complication for an already complicated day.