The School Fees We Pay - Mistakes We Make Finding Our Taste

[Enfusia]

Pay More For A Good Zipper!

After 2, er - um , mishaps with zippers I won't buy anything that doesn't use YKK zippers anymore.

I was hosting a business luncheon and decided to pee before having to stand and speak for the next hour.

Seemed like a good idea at the time.

Zipper separated into 2 pieces and would not zip up or down.

I had to beg kitchen staff for safety pins and got it closed so you couldn't tell.

The other was when I was driving.
I pulled over for gas and popped one leg out of the car to stand up like normal and the zipper popped too.

Sigh....

 

[Shoeaffic]

So, I'm not nearly as experienced or deep into my journey as most of you are, but I've already noticed some marked style preferences that I've developed and realized the many "school fees" I've payed. These are, I would suppose, part of a curve in learning that might seem usual for many, but that I only understood after experiencing it for a while.

For example footwear: I used to love, aesthetically, very chiseled, narrow and sleek lasts in oxfords and even loafers. I also privileged smooth leathers to grain or suede. This was before I understood the big difference in elegance vs casualness that these styles of shoe make, and also the fact that, since changing jobs, I don't wear proper suits that often, even if I try to wear jackets and trousers as often as I can. But after gathering a collection of this style of shoe, now I've realized that buying more rounded lasts and textured leathers is much more versatile, not only for denim, but also for chinos or odd trousers with jackets. So now aesthetically I really appreciate rounder, not so elongated lasts and my chiseled sleek lasts get little wear. The other significant discovery I made concerns the shape of my feet, and the kinds of last that fit it. I have stopped choosing lasts that only look good, and now I first of all try the lasts for fit. For instance, I have discovered I have narrow heels, so now I know that only lasts that are very well shaped in the heel, that preferably have leather board or full leather counters are significantly better for my physical AND mental health.

The other is, as can be expected, tailoring fit: when I was working as a lawyer, and I had to wear suits everyday, I used to buy those horrible poly suits two sizes too big. I then changed jobs, and stopped wearing suits for a while. Then I got back into tailored clothing. But at the beginning, I felt I needed to correct years of aesthetic horror with super slim silhouettes. And then I realized that this look is not only a little weird, but super uncomfortable. Also, I discovered that it is dangerous to rely on tailors who themselves do not wear a lot of tailored clothing, since all they care about is getting rid of extra fabric in the static pose you stand on when they're pinning you, especially on the back. BUT, the beautiful thing about high quality fabrics, light or heavy, is how it flows. For that, I discovered, some drape is needed. Movement is what gives tailoring its grace, as opposed to the stiffness of more casual clothes like denim or thick cotton, I've come to understand. And for that, one needs some ease or a bit of extra fabric. But, I then discovered, this is only on key places, and not everywhere (i.e. not on the shoulders, or the waist). So now I prefer a little drape on the chest and skirt, but with well waisted and soft, perfect fitting shoulders. I do have some regularly squared shoulders, and am tall and lean, so I understand that this might not work for everyone. But I've come to aesthetically prefer, and find a lot more flattering and less pretentious, less constricting clothes which give me comfort in movement, and that flow beautifully with the wind. Since what's the purpose of obsessing about full canvas and hand padded lapels if they fit skin tight and don't move, or if they're burdened by a lot of structure and foam?

I know that not everybody feels the same, but the point I'm trying to make is that I appreciate this thread as a way to reflect on an ongoing journey, and also to share the satisfaction of getting rid of all those costly mistakes, whether on eBay or good will, or even, since I'm in the city (NY), by making many migrants sent over by Abbott happy with well cared for clothes that can make them look presentable in their immigration processes and requests.

 

[Jnarcane]

I have paid so many school fees but I'm not sure I've learned much. There seems to be no pattern. I'm tall and skinny so theoretically everything should look good, but no. Most expensively, under the influence of styleforum folks in the mid oughts, I had Chan make me a few suits and a sportcoat in beautiful expensive fabrics. Worked hard with Patrick, to no avail: I've never got a single compliment wearing anything Chan that I can recall, and although they still hang in my closet for the most part, they are completely useless even though I paid a tailor a lot of money to rework a couple of them. In contrast, for example, in the late oughts, when the financial crisis was causing retailers to dump whatever was in their stores really really cheap, I ran in to a Canali store and in perhaps ten minutes bought a pair of flannel trousers and a pair of shoes for practically nothing, and I still wear them. The last few years I've been under Simon's influence and I think making fewer mistakes, mostly buying his stuff, vintage (ok, a bunch of mistakes there, but inexpensive, and some hits too), some Sid Mashburn (mostly casual pants), and some very affordable tailoring from Spier's top end (full-canvas neo sportcoats -- a Fox Bros. Westford Check; a custom Harris Tweed neo in a cloth Spier offers that seems to be Simon's PS cinnamon tweed; custom Minnis linen trousers where I luckily nailed the measurements). As for compliments, wearing Simon's grey herringbone donegal overcoat, I got more spontaneous compliments in a three minutes walking around NY Soho (two compliments, but still) than I got in 10 years wearing my Chan stuff almost daily (zero compliments). OK then: the lesson I learned is not to use a bespoke tailor. But I've only used one. Is that the right lesson?

How did the Chan look on you? What makes the Spier, Canali, and PS stuff different? Supposing that those newer acquisitions look better on you*, understanding the reasons will help you guide your tailor (and non-bespoke purchases) in the future. It's hard to imagine that bespoke can't produce what you want unless there's something about the goal that you don't yet know how to communicate.

*Which I wouldn't conclude with total confidence based solely on compliments

 

[BColl_Has_Too_Many_Shoes]

Next, and I even hesitate to call this a mistake, but I am an Alden fan and as I find myself branching out into other brands I wish I had went just a tad slower and curbed my enthusiasm just a little. But man, once you get your first taste of Alden shell, discipline is tough. Still, nice footwear collection but not as diverse as I would like.

I can tell you that nothing irritates me more, of which I was guilty of and advise against because of awareness or experience or both (fees much?), than severely limiting yourself to one brand. More effective would be to purchase from several makers offering varied styles that you find interesting than to concentrate your money on the same style in a different color.

Whilst you are expanding your collection, please attempt to stop.....

For example footwear: I used to love, aesthetically, very chiseled, narrow and sleek lasts in oxfords and even loafers. I also privileged smooth leathers to grain or suede. This was before I understood the big difference in elegance vs casualness that these styles of shoe make, and also the fact that, since changing jobs, I don't wear proper suits that often, even if I try to wear jackets and trousers as often as I can. But after gathering a collection of this style of shoe, now I've realized that buying more rounded lasts and textured leathers is much more versatile, not only for denim, but also for chinos or odd trousers with jackets. So now aesthetically I really appreciate rounder, not so elongated lasts and my chiseled sleek lasts get little wear. The other significant discovery I made concerns the shape of my feet, and the kinds of last that fit it. I have stopped choosing lasts that only look good, and now I first of all try the lasts for fit. For instance, I have discovered I have narrow heels, so now I know that only lasts that are very well shaped in the heel, that preferably have leather board or full leather counters are significantly better for my physical AND mental health.

Paying for shoes that predominantly only look good, but do not fit well. I rather own one pair of exceptional fitting shoes than 5 pairs that look exceptionally good. Obviously, tastes and preferences do vary (the heart and eyes want what the heart and eyes want), but (speaking personally not generally) I always reach for what I feel comfortable in. Why compromise on fit?

Do not get me wrong here. I would absolutely love to have a nice looking pair of shoes, minimum Edward Green, but a fantastic fit is critical for me these days.

 

[Mirage-]

When I started being interested in clothing at all, I bought like 10 pairs of chinos and a single wool trouser. I also got them all hemmed for the first time.
Unfortunately, they were all what most italian brands sell, slim-tapered and elastic, and sometimes low-rise too. After some time I realized I really like straighter trousers instead and had to try to sell them all. Except I'm fairly short and no one wanted them (also, imo, because most people, unlike SS models, wear trousers too long and/or don't even bother to hem them).
I ended up replacing those 10 pairs with 2 pairs of vintage-fit chinos from UNIQLO (really didn't feel like spending 200-300€ on overpriced imported japanese chino brands) and a pair of jeans from Nudie.

Then I really got into how beautiful high-rise trousers are with a jacket, and bought 2 pairs, without pleats as I had not found them useful in mid-rise, or very pleasing to the eye indeed (with a lot of material pooling when you sit, and in fact making the leg look less straight, which I already have immense trouble in finding in Italy).
Well, they turned out indeed beautiful, but extremely uncomfortable to wear when sitting, to the point I often had to unfasten them. Also the belt (I couldn't find them with side-tabs) kept digging in my back while driving.
I'm still not sure on that, I'd like to wear them and people on SF love them but they don't seem to be comfortable to me. I'll try on more pairs, maybe with a single pleat, if I ever happen into them in physical stores (unlikely) but will probably not chance buying them online again. And no I am not considering suspenders, that is way too quirky for me, I already stand out enough just by wearing "expensive" tailoring and dress shoes when most people rarely bother.

I have bought a 300€ (down from 990€ and then 500€) BB navy overcoat as my first (wool) overcoat. At the time was my most expensive (and striking) purchase yet and loved its look even though people started commenting, in the typical way where it is not crystal clear whether they actually think you are trying too hard, or whether it's a bona-fide compliment ad you're just being self-conscious about it.
But I ended up wearing it a perhaps a dozen time before resigning to the fact it just was too trim, I couldn't layer any decent sweater under it. The problem was that I had spent the entire day in a big outlet trying on coats, and all 48s were too big for me. Eventually just before closure I settled for that BB 46, roomier than most 46s, but I really shouldn't have, I should have accepted the wasted time and call it a day. I have been learning to accept that not finding what I want is a very common possibility when shopping, and that I should mostly not settle, at least not on fit. And also that outlets may have deep discounts but mostly carry stuff I don't want.

I've realized I had also bought into the minimalist leather sneakers hype, before after a year realizing they're really boring and look neither casual/interesting enough, nor dressy enough for tailoring, just pretentious (imho). The prolonged experience with quality dress shoes also probably means I can't really appreciate the poor quality leather they mostly use.
I now mostly wear (tassel and belgian) loafers (though I am never really satisfied with the fit), and bought a pair of good old canvas sneakers for the most casual outfits.

 

[ValidusLA]

The most costly and enduring mistake I made has to do with not listening to my tailor. When I first started doing bespoke clothing I was about 25.

Because I was used to it in denim and thought it looked "better", I didn't listen to my tailor for a long time about the rise on my trousers. I got everything in a low or med-low rise. Not only does this tend to look worse in general, when you are a 6'0 guy w/ a 30" inseam (stumpy legs) its really a bad call.

The long and short of this is that I have a boatload of bespoke suits that I now dislike because of the stupid rise, and everything I've had made in the last 3-4 years or so (with a proper rise) gets all the wear time.

Other mistakes (of less gravity):
- Bad ties, so many bad (designer) ties.
- Not understanding OTC socks for far too long
- Trouser legs with far too much tapering (which, once I discovered OTC socks, become even more annoying).
- Sticking with once good shoemakers for too long.

I think the biggest failure I've made overall (in my earlier days especially) was buying "good enough" instead of what the better call is. Examples:
- Buying tons of AE instead of just getting an actual good shoe. (Now everything I have is Vass, CJ, little bit of Carmina - much better).
- Getting a ton of Proper Cloth or cheaper MTM shirts. (Just got my first shirts back from CEGO NYC - long overdue upgrade).

 

[comrade]

I have paid so many school fees but I'm not sure I've learned much. There seems to be no pattern. I'm tall and skinny so theoretically everything should look good, but no. Most expensively, under the influence of styleforum folks in the mid oughts, I had Chan make me a few suits and a sportcoat in beautiful expensive fabrics. Worked hard with Patrick, to no avail: I've never got a single compliment wearing anything Chan that I can recall, and although they still hang in my closet for the most part, they are completely useless even though I paid a tailor a lot of money to rework a couple of them. In contrast, for example, in the late oughts, when the financial crisis was causing retailers to dump whatever was in their stores really really cheap, I ran in to a Canali store and in perhaps ten minutes bought a pair of flannel trousers and a pair of shoes for practically nothing, and I still wear them. The last few years I've been under Simon's influence and I think making fewer mistakes, mostly buying his stuff, vintage (ok, a bunch of mistakes there, but inexpensive, and some hits too), some Sid Mashburn (mostly casual pants), and some very affordable tailoring from Spier's top end (full-canvas neo sportcoats -- a Fox Bros. Westford Check; a custom Harris Tweed neo in a cloth Spier offers that seems to be Simon's PS cinnamon tweed; custom Minnis linen trousers where I luckily nailed the measurements). As for compliments, wearing Simon's grey herringbone donegal overcoat, I got more spontaneous compliments in a three minutes walking around NY Soho (two compliments, but still) than I got in 10 years wearing my Chan stuff almost daily (zero compliments). OK then: the lesson I learned is not to use a bespoke tailor. But I've only used one. Is that the right lesson?

So you thrive on compliments. Good. Where I live, Silicon Valley,
when guys look up from their phones, they invariably say," why
are you so dressed up?" upon seeing me in a sport coat. The only
compliments I get are from women and the occasional clothing salesman.

 

[DapperPhilly]

So you thrive on compliments. Good. Where I live, Silicon Valley,
when guys look up from their phones, they invariably say," why
are you so dressed up?" upon seeing me in a sport coat. The only
complimentsI get are from women and the occasional clothing salesman.

Seems preferable

 

[beanmachine314]

I think the temptation of having an expansive budget is that there is nothing stopping one from making the mistake...

I definitely agree with this. I've been into my menswear journey for only about 6 or 7 years now, and when I first got into clothing I definitely spent quite a bit of money on way too skinny, skin tight clothing, that just doesn't look good on my body (6'3"/1.9m, 200lb/90kg). I had the money to throw away on expensive clothing, then I went back to school. I then started buying mainly thrift items because they were cheap, and I realized I could find them in cuts that were a bit more flattering to my body. Now that I have money to blow on clothing again, I know exactly the measurements I want in clothing so it's much easier to find something I like now.

Easily number one for me as well. Once I started appreciating high-end footwear something felt lacking whenever I would wear my normal denim with boots. Had never heard of 'selvedge' even as recently as two years ago and have spent close to $2k on overpriced denim. Fortunately this does have a somewhat happy ending is that I have settled in a good place on Naked & Famous in terms of both price and fit. Still more than my $50 Levi's, but at a price I can certainly live with.

Next, and I even hesitate to call this a mistake, but I am an Alden fan and as I find myself branching out into other brands I wish I had went just a tad slower and curbed my enthusiasm just a little. But man, once you get your first taste of Alden shell, discipline is tough. Still, nice footwear collection but not as diverse as I would like.

I feel completely opposite to this. Other than my dress shoes, 95% of the time I wear my custom White's boots, and when I wear jeans they are paired with Wrangler cowboy cut jeans. I've tried numerous pairs of jeans, but they all wear out within a year or two (I wear jeans at least 2-3x a week in the winter) and Wrangler cowboy cut has been the most comfortable and flattering so far (they have a 12.5" or 13" rise in a size 38), and they last just as long as a pair of jeans 3x the price.

On your second point, if I'm not wearing Whites, I'm in Aldens. They fit my feet well, and they make a great shoe. Also their LHS loafer is so versatile and versatility is what I've based my wardrobe around. I'm also not looking for a large collection, but a small collection of items that can manage 95% of the situations I need them to manage.

Because I was used to it in denim and thought it looked "better", I didn't listen to my tailor for a long time about the rise on my trousers. I got everything in a low or med-low rise. Not only does this tend to look worse in general, when you are a 6'0 guy w/ a 30" inseam (stumpy legs) its really a bad call.

6'3" here with a 30" inseam. After several years of looking like I had a beer gut even though I don't have one I realized that I need a MUCH higher rise than anything OTR offers. I don't even look at pants now if they don't have a 13"+ front rise, and I get all my stuff made with a 14.5" rise. I spent way too much money on OTR stuff just to have my shirts come untucked and my belly hang out because there was no way my shirts and pants could meet. The only OTR stuff I wear now is if it's beach clothing since I know I'll be wearing my shirt untucked.

 

[BB_Adept]

I am glad I'm not the only one. I've always had an interest in clothes but whilst I was a student, I did not have any money to spend on them. Now that I earn money, I still find myself too poor to afford everything i want to. I started my "menswear" journey about 2 years ago and ordered a few trousers, shirts and sport coats online from different tailors with mixed results. During this year, I hardly spent any money on clothes. I still find myself unsatisfied with my wardrobe and at least 50% of the items I bought. A lot of stuff I ordered was from Singapore so I had to pay quite a fair amount of taxes and shipping.

One of my mistakes was switching online stores/tailors repeatedly. I think I will be better of choosing a European tailor and having them make a couple of things that improve piece by piece. Sadly the local tailors are rare and either something like suitsupply or full bespoke (which I cannot/ shall not afford).

Additionally, I have developed a keen interest in wrist watches, which limits the budget even more.

All this coupled with a non standard body composition makes the entire journey quite painful at times.

 

[Sam Hober]

I was given a gift of beautiful hand woven silk and got the idea of making a jacket - turned out I had never before worn a silk jacket before for a reason - they are too bright for my style. Ending up giving it away... It was a beautiful jacket and fit perfectly but was just not for me.

As a boy I followed my father on Sundays to his tailor and watched the fittings. My father was in the fashion business in New York (back when there was a business there...) and knew exactly what he wanted but he often gave away his suits when he lost interest. So even when things workout well it is a learning process.

He used to tell me that shopping was the way to learn about your personal style - so moral of the story don't be afraid to make mistakes and consider it all part of the process...

 

[TheLawBeard]

I’ve got a few things I’ve tried and accepted are my “school fees.”

High rise trousers. I’ve got some spare weight around the mid-section so they always look like I’m “trying to hide it” and are very much not a good look for me.

French cuffs on “odd” shirts. I went through a phase of loving wearing cuff links and how it “elevates” a shirt but now I’ve learned they really don’t work the way I’d like. As such, my tailor had a fun job converting some “interesting choices” to standard cuffs. (Flannels, prints, and even a denim)

Selvedge denim jackets. I wanted to love these so much. I really did. But if I’m being honest- my wife is right and they really aren’t “the best look” for me because it makes me look like, in her words, “a lumberjack who is trying too hard.”

 

[Najnar]

I’ve got a few things I’ve tried and accepted are my “school fees.”

High rise trousers. I’ve got some spare weight around the mid-section so they always look like I’m “trying to hide it” and are very much not a good look for me.

French cuffs on “odd” shirts. I went through a phase of loving wearing cuff links and how it “elevates” a shirt but now I’ve learned they really don’t work the way I’d like. As such, my tailor had a fun job converting some “interesting choices” to standard cuffs. (Flannels, prints, and even a denim)

Selvedge denim jackets. I wanted to love these so much. I really did. But if I’m being honest- my wife is right and they really aren’t “the best look” for me because it makes me look like, in her words, “a lumberjack who is trying too hard.”

I'm surprised that you generally found high-rise trousers to look less flattering for your gut instead of better - that seems against conventional StyleForum wisdom. Did you try any that also had pleats?

 

[comrade]

I’ve got a few things I’ve tried and accepted are my “school fees.”

High rise trousers. I’ve got some spare weight around the mid-section so they always look like I’m “trying to hide it” and are very much not a good look for me.

French cuffs on “odd” shirts. I went through a phase of loving wearing cuff links and how it “elevates” a shirt but now I’ve learned they really don’t work the way I’d like. As such, my tailor had a fun job converting some “interesting choices” to standard cuffs. (Flannels, prints, and even a denim)

Selvedge denim jackets. I wanted to love these so much. I really did. But if I’m being honest- my wife is right and they really aren’t “the best look” for me because it makes me look like, in her words, “a lumberjack who is trying too hard.”

Are these lumberjacks trying too hard?

 

[JFWR]

I’ve got a few things I’ve tried and accepted are my “school fees.”

High rise trousers. I’ve got some spare weight around the mid-section so they always look like I’m “trying to hide it” and are very much not a good look for me.

French cuffs on “odd” shirts. I went through a phase of loving wearing cuff links and how it “elevates” a shirt but now I’ve learned they really don’t work the way I’d like. As such, my tailor had a fun job converting some “interesting choices” to standard cuffs. (Flannels, prints, and even a denim)

Selvedge denim jackets. I wanted to love these so much. I really did. But if I’m being honest- my wife is right and they really aren’t “the best look” for me because it makes me look like, in her words, “a lumberjack who is trying too hard.”

Not gonna lie, but french cuffs on a denim shirt was definitely a bone head move. Glad your tailor helped you fix those, as uh......yeah, not a good idea. lol.

But I mean, we live and we learn about these things.