Site Topics - Part II

[LA Guy]



Mixed bag tonight on that score. Not great with the squat, but good bench and row.

Which reminded me to post in the pullup thread.

Re. Stitchy - I spend my day thinking up new ways to make the forum more inviting to both new and old members. Like I said, the crux of my activities, and the area in we focus much of our operating budget, is not just in content creation, but in ways to make the forum both more hospitable to those who come in wanting to know specific answers to specific questions, which is how the bulk of our membership finds this forum, and those who have been here a long time - in other words, increasing engagement across the board. Many of the non-clothing related forums actually sprang up as a result of the changing needs of our more senior members.

I like PSG's use of the word "sharing". That's what a lot of us came to this forum to do. To share something interesting.

I think that the idea to expand the "best posts contest" to include those old posts that are very good, and can stimulate discussion, is a good idea. I'll change the rules to that game.

 

[SpooPoker]

Is this the gathering of the dubiously honored?

So, Ive read all the points on this topic and I do have some things I would like to say.

Regarding the change from the "old days" until now - sure, it is different. The forum is much different than when I started lurking in 09. I can only imagine how different it is from someone who started posting in 07 or even earlier. But, like PSG said, we shouldn't focus on the past. I can absolutely see Vox's point about the forum being different and not happy about it - as a bespoke customer with an interest in the most detailed minutia of mens tailored clothing surrounded by a bunch of online resellers, noobs, and internet MTM questions, I can't blame him for being frustrated and unwilling to provide useful content.

However, I started here with not much knowledge at all, a horrid sense of color, and ill fitting clothing (save it, all you "You still don'ts). But, I watched and read and read some more and lurked and tried and failed...but I learned. Because someone was there to provide the visual guidance and the written knowledge to learn from. Im far from perfect, I will likely never be a bespoke customer, I am of course an internet reseller spam, but I have you to thank for the progress I have achieved, and the knowledge I have gained. Did you think we would be here, today, having this conversation when you posted this, in reply to my 3rd ever post?

Fast forward a bit to today, where members are signing up faster and more frequently than in 2009 when I joined. Who are they turning to as I turned to back then for knowledge and inspiration? Whitepigeon? There are not many of the Manton/Vox/etc expert threads going around to learn from (though Ed's recent one is great), and the WAYWRN allstars of Vox/Mao/PG/Trini, etc don't post anymore. So, while there may not be many people on the "level" of you guys out there to discuss similar topics with, you never know what will happen. You never know who you are inspiring. You never know which noob with 12 posts today won't be a bespoke customer able to discuss Steed with you a year from now. A good example of this is unbelragazzo, actually. He is a newer member who has shown a lot of improvement in his posts recently. I would have never (no offense man) thought he would be posting these great and detailed travel reports, say, a year ago - but he stuck around and I enjoy reading his things.

I think Im rambling, so tldr; while I personally might not be able to provide you with the technical discussion that you want, I for one want to learn more, and Im sure others do too.

 

[F. Corbera]



If you want a forum that accepts and turns people away, based on the amount of bespoke clothing they have, and their appreciation for your point of view, and in which only certain members are allowed to start site topics, that just isn't going to happen. From the beginning of the site, it's been about camaderie, not about having a panel of experts who rule over the masses...I have a feeling that this isn't your deal.

When I read this passage from Fok, it reminded me of something, but I couldn't quite put my finger on it at the time.

Now I remember.

I've always hated that place. Had a less intense version of the confrontation that you just described. I hope that they go out of business. Apparently, the proprietors have not learned that it's not acceptable to condescend to customers any more.

 

[Douglas]

There are problems outside of MC, but I am not sure they are the same problems as within MC, so I am hesitant to join vox in linking the two phenomena. While I don't spend nearly as much time in MC as I once did, it strikes me that the problems outside of MC are specific to a handful of, um, issues, and I'm not so sure those, um, issues, are as, umm prolific in MC as they are in other areas. nudge nudge.

Outside of MC, I think several of us are of a relatively uniform mind that there was a lack of moderation, what with the departures of M@t (for love) and Kwilk (for drink). Our consensus was rewarded when we were named moderators. But even now, given the spirit of light moderation which, to Fok's point, is the same as it ever was, I'm not sure what can be done short of simply banning members who become annoying. There is a general attitude of inanity that has taken over, with some threads simply overrun with useless, mindless chatter that is, I'd say, more like tweeting than forum discussion. It's throwaway stuff: I took a firm poop today, or dammit I don't want to have *********** girlfriend tonight, or Jamie broke up with me again. There was a temporary moderation vacuum, but I'm not sure how much would be different without active banning.

I'm not sure these are quite the same issues as in MC.

What I have found ironically entertaining even in this debate is that while a number of folks have all pointed their fingers at the moderation, some of those folks who find themselves in agreement on this point would likely, in private, point the moderators and their banhammers towards their comrades in this argument.

There's more to say about MC but I want to think about it more. I might just shut up entirely, I dunno.

 

[LA Guy]



When I read this passage from Fok, it reminded me of something, but I couldn't quite put my finger on it at the time.
Now I remember.

Not sure what is your point, but I still feel that way. Styleforum has never turned anyone away because of what they have or don't have, what they know or don't know. I work every day trying to make the place as hospitable as possible to everyone who enters our virtual doors. I work on features that will make the noob questions less burdensome on senior members, and that will bring noobs to the right place to start finding the answers they need. I answer PMs from guys who have been here for the good part of a decade, and brand new guys who haven't read the rules and figured out how to start a thread.

 

[F. Corbera]



Is this the gathering of the dubiously honored?
So, Ive read all the points on this topic and I do have some things I would like to say.

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

Regarding the change from the "old days" until now - sure, it is different. The forum is much different than when I started lurking in 09. I can only imagine how different it is from someone who started posting in 07 or even earlier. But, like PSG said, we shouldn't focus on the past. I can absolutely see Vox's point about the forum being different and not happy about it - as a bespoke customer with an interest in the most detailed minutia of mens tailored clothing surrounded by a bunch of online resellers, noobs, and internet MTM questions, I can't blame him for being frustrated and unwilling to provide useful content.
However, I started here with not much knowledge at all, a horrid sense of color, and ill fitting clothing (save it, all you "You still don'ts). But, I watched and read and read some more and lurked and tried and failed...but I learned. Because someone was there to provide the visual guidance and the written knowledge to learn from. Im far from perfect, I will likely never be a bespoke customer, I am of course an internet reseller spam, but I have you to thank for the progress I have achieved, and the knowledge I have gained. Did you think we would be here, today, having this conversation when you posted this, in reply to my 3rd ever post?
Fast forward a bit to today, where members are signing up faster and more frequently than in 2009 when I joined. Who are they turning to as I turned to back then for knowledge and inspiration? Whitepigeon? There are not many of the Manton/Vox/etc expert threads going around to learn from (though Ed's recent one is great), and the WAYWRN allstars of Vox/Mao/PG/Trini, etc don't post anymore. So, while there may not be many people on the "level" of you guys out there to discuss similar topics with, you never know what will happen. You never know who you are inspiring. You never know which noob with 12 posts today won't be a bespoke customer able to discuss Steed with you a year from now. A good example of this is unbelragazzo, actually. He is a newer member who has shown a lot of improvement in his posts recently. I would have never (no offense man) thought he would be posting these great and detailed travel reports, say, a year ago - but he stuck around and I enjoy reading his things.
I think Im rambling, so tldr; while I personally might not be able to provide you with the technical discussion that you want, I for one want to learn more, and Im sure others do too.

I've read and thought about what you've written.

Basically, what you are describing is the Steady State theory Fok has advanced in all of his responses to this question over the last three years or so. That is, there has been no real change for the worse from the past; the fact of individual posters makes little difference because they get replaced by new generations of happy fruit flies, feeding on the auto-renewing, seasonal fruits.

Why do you think so many are unhappy, then? It can't be nostalgia, because enough time has passed so that increasing numbers of members who see problems are as recent, or even more, as you, and the nostalgia crew nearly extinct.

How do you put those two things together?

Hard to figure, isn't it?

If you owned SF, would it think it wise to listen only to the pleasing voices saying how great things are?

At any rate, it makes no difference. Fok has already staked his position on things, so it's a live with it or get out kind of thing.

 

[F. Corbera]



Not sure what is your point, but I still feel that way. Styleforum has never turned anyone away because of what they have or don't have, what they know or don't know. I work every day trying to make the place as hospitable as possible to everyone who enters our virtual doors. I work on features that will make the noob questions less burdensome on senior members, and that will bring noobs to the right place to start finding the answers they need. I answer PMs from guys who have been here for the good part of a decade, and brand new guys who haven't read the rules and figured out how to start a thread.

My point is that saying that I'm a snob who doesn't care that people learn and delight in things doesn't make way I say wrong. Even if you were right (and I think that there is evidence that you are not), I could still be right. Charlie Davidson is a snob. If he says your tie sucks, though, your tie sucks.

As for your PM habits, I do the same thing, so we can both feel very noble about responding to messages from the broad sweep of society as represented by SF newcomer and aged cadaver alike. And you know what? It's probably not just us, either.

The main thing: you have accepted literally zero criticism among all the comments offered today. No detractor can have a valid point. You're dug in, and like I say, that's that.

Don't you agree? That is, that the subject is closed, yet again, as no adverse, unapproved comment will be allowed to affect the direction of the site?

 

[F. Corbera]



There are problems outside of MC, but I am not sure they are the same problems as within MC, so I am hesitant to join vox in linking the two phenomena.

Just to be clear, I didn't link it, Bhowie did.

 

[in stitches]



As for your PM habits, I do the same thing, so we can both feel very noble about responding to messages from the broad sweep of society as represented by SF newcomer and aged cadaver alike. And you know what? It's probably not just us, either.

you didnt answer my last one

 

[F. Corbera]



you didnt answer my last one

You're a special case.

 

[F. Corbera]

Might as well stick this here.

I agree with a lot of what's been said. Vox (F. Corbera now, for all you newbs) and Nore (BigBris) hit on a lot of good points. It's hard to pick out a particular change that most captures the forum's decline, but if forced to, I'd say it's been the shift from being a consumer-oriented meeting place to an outlet for vendors to hawk their wares. This used to be the kind of place that empowered consumers of men's clothing--which was particularly useful for those of who buy bespoke, as opaque as that market is. You could come here to get the inside track, learning from the experiences of fellow customers and clients. Now, vendors are everywhere (including former regular members) leading discussion and the forum management even puts out its own original content. This has a chilling effect on discussion, as some participants are consequently deemed more equal than others. A similar dynamic destroyed AskAndy (another story for another time).
So, yes, I liked it better when a vendor (be it a store manager or tailor or craftsmen of whatever sort) knew that it was a little dangerous to set foot here, because he'd be taken to task and perhaps forced to provide better service and better products. Now, we treat them like gods whose presence we should be grateful for. And the forum sucks. Coincidence?

 

[Bhowie]

I think there is a link. Not sure what my opinion is worth, as I have chosen a certain style of posting. Short version: Influx of new members is Cruiser'ifing the forum. I see a link with this and the hudler switch.

I will ask this question. What made SF special? PSG gave an opinion. I think Vox beat around the bush. I think it is key membership that contriubtes valuable posts to SF. I'm not just talking about ballin' ass gear. People contribute to the zeitgeist of SF. Douglas is an average dresser at best, but he adds to the humor and tone of the forum. Dopey does both. Iammatt does both. The tone and feel is drowned out by the influx of new members.

I don;t get much out of the forum anymore. I've been frustrated by the general position of mods that nothing is wrong. I've expressed that I'm about done with the forum. Others have expressed similar feelings. It strikes me as very odd that this much of a stink is raised that seems to be brushed aside. I've only been here 4 years, that feels odd to say that, but I don't recall this much of a stink raised in the past.

 

[Thomas]



I think there is a link. Not sure what my opinion is worth, as I have chosen a certain style of posting. Short version: Influx of new members is Cruiser'ifing the forum. I see a link with this and the hudler switch.
I will ask this question. What made SF special? PSG gave an opinion. I think Vox beat around the bush. I think it is key membership that contriubtes valuable posts to SF. I'm not just talking about ballin' ass gear. People contribute to the zeitgeist of SF. Douglas is an average dresser at best, but he adds to the humor and tone of the forum. Dopey does both. Iammatt does both. The tone and feel is drowned out by the influx of new members.
I don;t get much out of the forum anymore. I've been frustrated by the general position of mods that nothing is wrong. I've expressed that I'm about done with the forum. Others have expressed similar feelings. It strikes me as very odd that this much of a stink is raised that seems to be brushed aside. I've only been here 4 years, that feels odd to say that, but I don't recall this much of a stink raised in the past.

My favorite posts have been lengthy, picture-driven expositions that are added to and discussed: Whodini's coffee thread, Manton's culinary school, T4's tailor/loom thread(s), visits to NSM, Vintage Gent's piano lessons, photojournals of Florence, Napoli, Etc. And yes, ****** Tuesdays. okay maybe not that. But yes, that's sharing, and it's important that people with similar experiences add to these threads.

The bad news is that newer members frequently don't have the life experiences of some of the more-seasoned members and don't have as much to add - or worse - rely on google-fu to feign knowledge/experience. If we had a new Manton or iammatt or vox signing up every few months, that would be ideal. But I don't think we're getting that. We're getting pale imitations at best, without the intellectual underpinnings or life experiences - or at least not really willing to exert themselves in that vein. I'd like to think some of this is other members sitting back, waiting for others to show their hands.

 

[F. Corbera]



And yes, ****** Tuesdays.
...

I'd like to think some of this is other members sitting back, waiting for others to show their hands.

Man hands?

 

[LA Guy]



I've read and thought about what you've written.
Basically, what you are describing is the Steady State theory Fok has advanced in all of his responses to this question over the last three years or so. That is, there has been no real change for the worse from the past; the fact of individual posters makes little difference because they get replaced by new generations of happy fruit flies, feeding on the auto-renewing, seasonal fruits.
Why do you think so many are unhappy, then? It can't be nostalgia, because enough time has passed so that increasing numbers of members who see problems are as recent, or even more, as you, and the nostalgia crew nearly extinct.
How do you put those two things together?
Hard to figure, isn't it?
If you owned SF, would it think it wise to listen only to the pleasing voices saying how great things are?
At any rate, it makes no difference. Fok has already staked his position on things, so it's a live with it or get out kind of thing.

I listen to many voices. Some I give more credence, some less. And not just today, but every day. I am constantly reviewing my positions, seeing where and how things need to change, and what things need to stay the same. The only thing that I keep constant is the vision that j and I have of the forum, which is as a fun, energetic, dive bar at which everyone has a seat and a voice, and an interest in common. When I see things start detracting from that, whether it is one of our mods being too heavyhanded, or a member bullying a lot of others (do you remember martini@8, or something like that?), or one of our programs just not working, I work to fix it. My interest in this community is not purely academic. I am charged with its upkeep, so I don't have the luxury of overlooking problems.

Are there problems in Men's Clothing? Yes. However, I am convinced that some of the solutions you have proposed are worse than the problem. If you read through my posts, you'll see that some of your specific proposals have already been in place for a while, All the dubiously honored members here have the option of moderating their own threads, to keep them on topic, for example. Some of the other specific proposals you had, we've already discussed in detail, and have rejected outright. Others, like the ability for specific users to turn off ads if they so choose, I am willing to revisit, though I have serious reservations.

Other solutions, which you have not proposed, have been implemented as well. We will probably be adding to the already extant SF101 section; and, in the future, we see the SF101 section being fully integrated with the forum, so that content can be added to the original articles, and new members can ask related questions in that section, which can be answered in the "thread", and an article would be automatically produced that would keep that answer "evergreen."

My point is that saying that I'm a snob who doesn't care that people learn and delight in things doesn't make way I say wrong. Even if you were right (and I think that there is evidence that you are not), I could still be right. Charlie Davidson is a snob. If he says your tie sucks, though, your tie sucks.
As for your PM habits, I do the same thing, so we can both feel very noble about responding to messages from the broad sweep of society as represented by SF newcomer and aged cadaver alike. And you know what? It's probably not just us, either.
The main thing: you have accepted literally zero criticism among all the comments offered today. No detractor can have a valid point. You're dug in, and like I say, that's that.
Don't you agree? That is, that the subject is closed, yet again, as no adverse, unapproved comment will be allowed to affect the direction of the site?

I actually took a lot away from this discussion, as you can tell if you read through my posts, or even just read my answer to your post, above. However, I'm not sure that your idea of what the forum is, and ought to be, is compatible with mine. It doesn't mean that you haven't contributed to it, nor that you don't have a place in it.

My question to you is - are you so entrenched in your position that you can't accept that some users, like Unbelragazzo, PSG, or Spoopoker, who are, by and large, happy with the MC forum, have valid opinions as well?