shoe construction...behind the veil

[jerrybrowne]



Lamb is sheep. I dunno...I've just never seen any sheep or goat that was suitable for the wear and tear that a shoe gets...inside or out.

Cleverley has lined a few of my shoes with kid glace. I think they use it mainly for bright colored linings....

http://www.aacrack.co.uk/product/lining-footwear/glace-kid-brg-08-10.html

 

[DWFII]

Perhaps an interesting tidbit: Once upon a time "basil", a form of sheep leather, was so poorly regarded that it was used to make patterns for shoes--like designing on a taped last.

The first pair of boots I made I lined with a veg sheep (it's what my teacher used). It looked fine at first, and was certainly soft enough. But about a year down the road the grain layer was peeling and torn. And this was on the leg of the boot where it didn't get that much wear.

There are potentially new and different tannages that I'm not aware of...for both sheep and goat. Who knows?

And, as per the above link (to AA Crack), I am not adverse to using glazed kid for top bead and inlay work...although I much prefer kangaroo. But kid has always been "reserved," as who should say, for women's shoes simply because the assumption is that women won't be so hard on them. I've seen a lot of women's pumps, in my time, where the grain had been snagged on a rock or branch or something and the grain layer peeled.

edited for punctuation and clarity

 

[Diego65]

I haven't read every post in this thread recently, but I will provide an anecdote, fwiw. My feet sweat a ton. For whatever reason, I don't know if it was the leather, or what but my pairs of Crocket & Jones shoes (long gone by now) would actually get salt stains on the outside when I was wearing them on hot summer days for long stretches of time. The same salt stains that you might see on the baseball cap of somebody who sweats into their hat during sports, or whatever. What I made of it was it was either the sweat of my feet making its way through the lining and upper and drying on the surface, and/or the salts from my sweaty feet making their way to the uppers and causing a leeching of the tanning agents in the uppers due to some pH shifting (the same thing happens to leather exposed to salt water from melting snow). People will often find that those "salt stains" are difficult to remove. It isn't that the salt is difficult to remove, more that it is hard to revert the leather back to an acidic state. The "salt" most people see is just tanning agent spewing out.

Perhaps suggesting that as a general rule, at least, the less occlusive a shoe is the better. Theoretically and ideally a shoe should (and can) breathe in three dimensions. But if the insole will breathe and wick moisture away from the foot...it is thicker and potentially more absorbent than the upper. And maybe...at least according to the science...gravity would tend to prevent much of that moisture from migrating upward.

Or you could just take them off every ten minutes and let them air for a half hour or so, before wearing them for another ten minutes....

What are your thoughts on goatskin lining rather than calf for sweaty feet?

Hi! my humble opinion. Transpiration is a normal physiological process, designed to basically maintain the regulation of temperature and eliminate substances (salts). Therefore sweat is a solution of water and salt, totally impossible to stop is natural. (There are certain surgeries on the autonomous nervous system that decrease the volume secreted).
Some people sweat more in the hands, armpits, feet, etc., which causes them a discomfort for the marks that leave the sweat stains and the image they give.
In relation to footwear (I say as a medical professional, since I don't know nothing about of the manufacture of footwear) the ideal would be that which absorbs and dissipates all the sweat of the foot, which is impossible, therefore the best footwear would be the one better deal with perspiration, and the best biological substance is cotton, of course we can not wear cotton shoes. Then the best material for footwear is the one that allows to absorb and eliminate the sweat, and that is the leather, and in its most natural state possible.
At the other end is the synthetic that does not absorb the transpiration and in fact accumulates it, then it is not the best option to make footwear, although there is a lot of synthetic footwear and that is another story, I'm just talking about the ideal. (In the army they always told us to have spare socks and keep the foot dry when we used the boots during the marches).
What can happen if sweat builds up ?: Bacteria and fungi that normally live in the foot and in the footwear multiply and cause diseases in the skin or nails. Another clarification is impossible to sterilize the shoes by any means, unless we use techniques that are used in hospitals.
In relation to the spots that remain on the leather of the shoes of people who sweat a lot the foot, is because the leather is impregnated in the salt of sweat and that causes the stain, for he who swears a lot that is impossible to avoid, perhaps changing the stockings often.
Sorry for the speech.
Peace

 

[piccolochimico]

Duncan,

Great post. Love the bit about the astronaut's cup. Never seen that before...makes perfect sense.

Yes, I know gravity is only part of the equation (I alluded to that in a previous post) but it is part. And if you seal off the insole and the bottom of the foot, you not only prevent hydrostatic transfer (which seems to be at least partly dependent on gravity) you force moisture to exit solely through the vamp...or not at all, depending on how freely the feet perspire and / or how quickly the moisture can evaporate off the surface of the vamp.. Since a goodly part of that moisture is transferred through osmosis and the tendency of water to actively seek areas with a lower coefficient of moisture, the vamp may, as in patrick's case, quickly become supersaturated, and the breathe-ability constrained at the very least. The feet may never be wholly dry.

I suspect this is the case more often than not ...even among those who don't perspire heavily. In fact, shoemakers have more or less depended on that fact for centuries--making a footbed in a shoe depends on moisture and heat to make the insole malleable.

I don't have the expertise or the vocabulary to speak to these issues cogently. In regards to articulating these concepts, much of this is new territory to me despite it having been part of what I was taught, what I have read, what I do and what I instinctively have known these past @50 years.

That said, and coming back around to a central point in all this...it bears repeating: Why would a shoemaker want to constrain breathe-ability at all? Even in part? Why would a mindful shoemaker not consider it an essential element...a critical component...of a well made shoe?

Presented with the choice to constrain breathe-ability or to implement it...there is no choice, at least not as far as I can see.

edited for punctuation and clarity

First of all, let me thank everyone of SF because of your enriching posts

I've read from page 1-10 and 100 so far, soon i'll read it all.


I've got technical knowledge of physics, chemistry and physiology that may be useful to clear out some points,
@DWFII & others: don't shoot the newbie.

Truth be said, gravity doesn't play a relevant role IMHO; the pressure exerted on the insole by foot is much stronger than G-force and when we walk there are 2 different components of exerted forces (each force has an opposing force applied).
The insole/outsole are the joint barrier through which air and water pass (inside and outside, according to weather and physical conditions)
(this is the Geox patent, a RTW italian manufacturer for beath-able shoes...that soak water, too)

One of the main issue is how the moisture gets out of the shoe and how it affects the shoe itself.

I believe these "notions" are nothing new to most of you, is a common sense reasoning, with some science-based evidences

The sole of the foot is highly vascularized with an efficient pump system; every time you step, the pressure exerted on the palm helps the blood to reach higher vessels. (that's why standing position makes legs and feet bigger, and shoes tight).

So, why do we sweat?
To cool down.

The higher the temperature, the more is the water (moisture) in steam and warm air tends to raise, thus i believe that vamp might be considered like an efficient cooling system because of the higher surface (compared to the sole) and the thinner leather

The insole turns black because leather and all the natural materials are nothing more than proteins (denatured); bacteria, but mostly fungae, prosper in moisture, eat our dead skin leftovers and the leather, too. (not so quickly)

Quote:
I agree 100%,but i'm really worried by the lack of grip; the outsole (thus the shoe) slips when you step on a wet surface like marble because of the same aquaplaning that affects car tyres.
I wonder how UK gentlemen can't slip when in a hurry; asphalt is better surface, but wet sleek pavements are too dangerous (it's like ice skating).

I've have recently bought a dress shoes but i have my own orthopedic insole to fit in (knees chondropathy); i know it has been made by neoprene (or other polymer i don't remember) but now i'm wondering if it could be made by leather, or other natural material.
There are no many informations about orthopedic insole and i don't want to go OT, but in my personal case it seems clear that no matter what shoes i will buy, but wearing my own insoles limits the beneficial of a whole leather shoes




p.s. i'm not english native, so be patient and tolerant for some typos or grammar mistakes, i've always trying to improve and learn as much as i can

 

[Diego65]

First of all, let me thank everyone of SF because of your enriching posts

I've read from page 1-10 and 100 so far, soon i'll read it all.


I've got technical knowledge of physics, chemistry and physiology that may be useful to clear out some points,
@DWFII & others: don't shoot the newbie.

Truth be said, gravity doesn't play a relevant role IMHO; the pressure exerted on the insole by foot is much stronger than G-force and when we walk there are 2 different components of exerted forces (each force has an opposing force applied).
The insole/outsole are the joint barrier through which air and water pass (inside and outside, according to weather and physical conditions)
(this is the Geox patent, a RTW italian manufacturer for beath-able shoes...that soak water, too)

One of the main issue is how the moisture gets out of the shoe and how it affects the shoe itself.

I believe these "notions" are nothing new to most of you, is a common sense reasoning, with some science-based evidences

The sole of the foot is highly vascularized with an efficient pump system; every time you step, the pressure exerted on the palm helps the blood to reach higher vessels. (that's why standing position makes legs and feet bigger, and shoes tight).

So, why do we sweat?
To cool down.

The higher the temperature, the more is the water (moisture) in steam and warm air tends to raise, thus i believe that vamp might be considered like an efficient cooling system because of the higher surface (compared to the sole) and the thinner leather

The insole turns black because leather and all the natural materials are nothing more than proteins (denatured); bacteria, but mostly fungae, prosper in moisture, eat our dead skin leftovers and the leather, too. (not so quickly)


I agree 100%,but i'm really worried by the lack of grip; the outsole (thus the shoe) slips when you step on a wet surface like marble because of the same aquaplaning that affects car tyres.
I wonder how UK gentlemen can't slip when in a hurry; asphalt is better surface, but wet sleek pavements are too dangerous (it's like ice skating).

I've have recently bought a dress shoes but i have my own orthopedic insole to fit in (knees chondropathy); i know it has been made by neoprene (or other polymer i don't remember) but now i'm wondering if it could be made by leather, or other natural material.
There are no many informations about orthopedic insole and i don't want to go OT, but in my personal case it seems clear that no matter what shoes i will buy, but wearing my own insoles limits the beneficial of a whole leather shoes




p.s. i'm not english native, so be patient and tolerant for some typos or grammar mistakes, i've always trying to improve and learn as much as i can

Hi!!
I don´t know if in your country is possible, but in mine is possible to buy orthopedics insoles of leather, and is what I recommend, the others materials just only for sports shoes (trainners).
Cheers

 

[patrickBOOTH]

Is there any downside to leaving outsoles completely naked. No smoothing, shining, or anything? Just some naked soles. I think it would have kind of a nice rustic look, if only the bottom, but maybe I'm missing something. Sure there's probably some initial water resistance, but that goes away quickly.

 

[DWFII]



Is there any downside to leaving outsoles completely naked. No smoothing, shining, or anything? Just some naked soles. I think it would have kind of a nice rustic look, if only the bottom, but maybe I'm missing something. Sure there's probably some initial water resistance, but that goes away quickly.

Not that I know of but it's not always easy to make a shoe without abrasion or marring of some sort to the outsole. Hammer heads, knives, wheels, files, etc., applied to other parts of the shoe...nevermind the outsole...are the unsuspected and unanticipated culprits.

edited for punctuation and clarity

 

[patrickBOOTH]

That's kind of the appeal though, just a very handmade look.

 

[DWFII]



That's kind of the appeal though, just a very handmade look.

I understand what you're saying but, frankly, as a shoemaker I don't have much sympathy.

Yes, they have a "very handmade look" but so do pampooties or cuarans.

 

[clee1982]



That's kind of the appeal though, just a very handmade look.

You mean they have a "very bad" hand made look? Like somethings made by me...

 

[patrickBOOTH]



I understand what you're saying but, frankly, as a shoemaker I don't have much sympathy.

Yes, they have a "very handmade look" but so do pampooties or cuarans.

Here I am thinking I'd win brownie points from you for taking a liking to a natural material looking natural.

 

[patrickBOOTH]

How do you feel about natural edges in the opening (not turned). I love that actually.

 

[DWFII]



How do you feel about natural edges in the opening (not turned). I love that actually.

If you mean along the topline...well, I think it is one of the worst sins a shoemaker can commit. Seriously. If a maker can't take the time to refine the edge even that much...or doesn't have the skill... he's just not into it. Ought to be bagging groceries--plus he'd make better money.

Just my personal opinion...not necessarily as a shoemaker but damn sure as a "Craftsman."

 

[DWFII]



Here I am thinking I'd win brownie points from you for taking a liking to a natural material looking natural.

Brownies maybe but no points. I like the leather to look natural myself but it's kind of like not sanding (or scraping) the seat of a wooden chair--no matter how you feel about wood if it's not finished it's camp furniture.

 

[patrickBOOTH]

Interesting. I'm just a philistine I guess.