Random fashion thoughts - Part II (A New Hope)

[Zamb]

This is certainly true … and diminishes to the point where it's more profitable to just rip it off and make whatever it is out of the cheapest materials/means possible a'la Forever 21, ABS, etc knockoff artists.

Yes, except it isnt only Forever etc that knock off, we have a TON OF HIGH END , even artisanal brands that are knocking off stuff almost line for line and gets a past by many people who would bash H&M.
I think there are people who genuinely care about making a really good product and there are others woh are just concerned with making the most money they can.
Its a delicate balancing act, because one has to have integrity and believe in a way of working to get great products done........but no matter the passion it takes money to stay in business

 

[Coldsnap]

I'd just like a thin minimal leather belt for jeans that's $40ish I got a few from leather good connections and they are so damn thick it doesn't look right. Any recommendations?

 

[dieworkwear]



The constant variable is that skilled makers are dying off (literally) and the ones left can charge whatever they want. Even in China... 10-15 years ago it was super cheap to produce in China, but since then they've realized that they have all the power because they are the only ones willing to do production and have raised prices A LOT in the last 15 years.

A good example is Martin Greenfield. What would happen if, one day, Martin Greenfield decided he'd had enough, liquidized the company and went off to live in Costa Rica and be a beach bum? Maybe some of his employees would try to take on some of his clients, but they're all old too. It's structurally weak, the whole system.

If designers woke up and weren't just sheep they could build something for themselves and futureproof the industry.

Hermes has seen increased production over the last twenty years and rapidly increasing prices. I assume that increased production means also an increase in employment (and, from what I can tell, quality has kept up).

I'm sure there are a bunch of variables here, including higher prices for raw materials, but I assume the simplest and most obvious answer is that there's just a lot more demand now. There's more demand for Birkins, more demand for Common Projects Achilles (remember when those didn't cost $450?), more demand for EG, etc. And while fashion companies can also increase production to meet demand, they probably don't want to oversaturate the market and clip their desirability. Hermes could probably pump out a ton of those Birkin bags, but they purposefully keep supply lower than demand in order to make those bags a status symbol. So if you're not going to grow supply at the same rate as demand, the easiest way to clear the market is to raise prices.

The three most tired menswear headlines in the last ten years:

- More men are becoming interested in fashion
- China is a booming market for fashion and luxury goods
- The menswear market is growing a faster pace than women's

Which is the same period of this inflation.

There's a lot of skilled work that goes into fashion, but a lot of this stuff is also kind of straightforward. Givenchy has $1,000 silk-screened sweatshirts right now. Gucci has $700 silk-screened tees. That can't be because they can't find silk screening artisans, I assume.

 

[il_colonnello]

I think that the kind of vertical integration that @ClambakeSkate favours requires a lot of other things besides a designer having technical skills. Btw, Alexander Wang, whether or not you like what he does stylistically, is one of the most technically minded designers of his generation. On the other hand I'm not sure I perceive the Antwerp Six as particularly technically skilled. Then again, I have no problem with designers not being makers (and vice versa); they are two different job descriptions, why expect somebody to master both?

On the whole I don't think luxury fashion is any different than any other market: prices rise as long as there is somebody who is willing to buy at those prices. So if it's true that high-fashion prices have exploded over the past 15 years, I guess they haven't yet reached a level where nobody's buying any more.

 

[winston86dit]

If one is to be completely vertical, the cost of running your own manufacturing is astronomical. The labor, machines, electricity, space, up keep, and then factor in health care, fare wages, vacation time, etc. for all employees. The list would be especially daunting for any new designer let alone some of the bigger brands out there who design and produce everything under the sun from shoes, bags, to stuffed animals. You could say that maybe over the long run, if a company is completely vertical it pays off and maybe that's true but the benefits are not going to be brought down to the consumer level, if anything you would see prices increase dramatically at first before (maybe) leveling off.
You could say Nick Fouquet's business is vertically integrated. Making his RTW and MTO hats in his small space in Venice, CA. But this is small potatoes compared to someone like Balenciaga and his output is nothing huge. It works for him though and the small niche he has carved.
Also The Elder Statesman is mostly vertical with a new facility in Culver City, CA making a majority of their goods. But they were able to build that facility with a heavy investment from Chrome Hearts (after their CFDA mentoring). And still they're not able to produce everything they make and they still buy yarn from other parts of the globe and have trouble accessing good labor, solid machines, etc. And their **** is still just as expensive.

I think what may be being talked about is going back to the days where the local tailor made your clothing. So having a designer, who can actually craft, make your clothes and everyone in town's clothes. This would obviously work best in a big city with presumably a larger client base (read Nick Fouquet above) but it would certainly be a hard thing to scale without the $. But maybe, designers don't need to grow or be greedy.

One thing is for sure though, I don't think fashion is easy and trying to figure out the future of fashion is even harder. There can most definitely be improvements to the system but as long as board members need to be satiated and consumers want cheap clothes, it's going to be pretty slow going.

 

[dieworkwear]



You could say Nick Fouquet's business is vertically integrated. Making his RTW and MTO hats in his small space in Venice, CA. But this is small potatoes compared to someone like Balenciaga and his output is nothing huge. It works for him though and the small niche he has carved.

Also The Elder Statesman is mostly vertical with a new facility in Culver City, CA making a majority of their goods. But they were able to build that facility with a heavy investment from Chrome Hearts (after their CFDA mentoring). And still they're not able to produce everything they make and they still buy yarn from other parts of the globe and have trouble accessing good labor, solid machines, etc. And their **** is still just as expensive.

I think what may be being talked about is going back to the days where the local tailor made your clothing. So having a designer, who can actually craft, make your clothes and everyone in town's clothes. This would obviously work best in a big city with presumably a larger client base (read Nick Fouquet above) but it would certainly be a hard thing to scale without the $. But maybe, designers don't need to grow or be greedy.

Savile Row production is all in-house (at some firms anyway, and for the most part). Pair of pants there starts at $2,000.

I think it's apples to oranges when you're comparing small-scale, in-house production to mass-scale, supply chain production though. There are too many moving variables. It has to be something like a suit manufacturer making all of its own suits vs someone who outsources, but targets the same market, has the same volume, etc. I imagine you could save a lot of cost by being vertically integrated, and that would trickle down, but you also take new risks. Vertically integrated firms have to figure out how to smooth production cycles. The prob with fashion is that the typical fall/ winter, spring/ summer calendar leaves a lot of dead space. So, if you're a factory, you have to figure out how to keep people employed throughout the year.

Manufacturing and marketing/ designing are two different kinds of businesses. I don't know how those risks and savings balance out, but I don't know if either biz model has avoided the price inflation in the last ten years.

 

[cyc wid it]

Nothing meaningful to add, but this recent convo has been interesting.

 

[oulipien]

That said, yes, I agree that you can find clothes that "go" with whatever fashion pieces you have. Sometimes that's pretty fun.

Back when I was still doing the college radio thing (or just making mixtapes more frequently) my almost absolute favorite thing was unexpected pairings, like a movement from a Ligeti viola sonata that happens to move seamlessly into Sun City Girls or whatever. I'm sort of forced to attempt similar things with my clothes now as my wardrobe is basically in transition, and it's satisfying there too.

 

[cyc wid it]

Open format is best format.

I want that stupid Loewe shearling.

 

[oulipien]

But that's not the life that a lot of chefs want. A lot of chefs want glory until the kitchen burns them the **** out, then they realize it's much easier to make money as a private chef or a company like Blue Apron. There's just no Michelin star or Bon Apetit cover story in it for them.

I might also be ranting because I can't stand Chang.

Ehhhhhh Chang is an ass for sure but he's right. Chefs—maybe not Chang-like executive chefs overseeing empires, but the people working the line, sous chefs on down, have pretty **** jobs with pretty **** pay and benefits, and will generally make less than the waitstaff even at super high-end restaurants. (My sister used to be one of the people making the fish at Le Bernadin; she made less than the waitstaff, and fish is LB's thing.)

 

[winston86dit]



Savile Row production is all in-house (at some firms anyway, and for the most part). Pair of pants there starts at $2,000.

I think it's apples to oranges when you're comparing small-scale, in-house production to mass-scale, supply chain production though. There are too many moving variables. It has to be something like a suit manufacturer making all of its own suits vs someone who outsources, but targets the same market, has the same volume, etc. I imagine you could save a lot of cost by being vertically integrated, and that would trickle down, but you also take new risks. Vertically integrated firms have to figure out how to smooth production cycles. The prob with fashion is that the typical fall/ winter, spring/ summer calendar leaves a lot of dead space. So, if you're a factory, you have to figure out how to keep people employed throughout the year.

Manufacturing and marketing/ designing are two different kinds of businesses. I don't know how those risks and savings balance out, but I don't know if either biz model has avoided the price inflation in the last ten years.

Completely agree on the price. The examples I used in my earlier post (Nick Fouquet and The Elder Statesman) both do custom pieces for clients but you definitely pay for it. But, I think this is where it comes back full circle on price in that, what is "expensive" really? I mean, $1,200 for a custom made hat is expensive I agree but when you compare that to an $800 hat from Saint Laurent, then it doesn't look so bad any more.

The major issue with most vertical integration is that unless said designer is making one thing and one thing only, it becomes very hard to get the manufacturing where it needs to be in order to keep up with making more than one product. It's one of the reasons (going back to Clam's earlier post) why most traditional footwear companies still make their own shoes because it's really the only thing they make. But imagine trying to be vertically integrated making thousands of different products? And like you said dieworkwear, there's a ton of risk involved by doing everything yourself. I've actually worked with local manufacturers/companies before and while some of them started with good intentions (making their own stuff) a lot of them have had to turn to taking on other clients in order to keep the lights on and still run their own manufacturing. Not to mention a lot of people don't realize how much time/money goes into keeping up a factory, big or small.

The real future in manufacturing is going to be in automation. Not making things more artisanal and hand made but taking the human touch out of it. Not that I promote that sort of thing but that's the way it's going, especially on a mass scale. You'll be seeing this in the footwear industry (sneakers) within the next 2-4 years.

 

[g transistor]

I mean yeah, that's a huge problem, and I mentioned that in my posts.

Unless you raise the price of your food, you'll have to cut corners somewhere. Most restaurants will cut corners in the kitchen staff pay, especially higher end restaurants, because there's a culture of putting in your time for **** pay and **** benefits. I'm not saying that what he says is untrue. I am saying that his choices in where he opens his restaurants, what type of food he sells, and other choices make it hard to pay staff adequately.

 

[cyc wid it]

Well, there's also residency for med students... but yeah staging etc sounds awful.

 

[mementomoriarty]

On a much less involved discussion topic:

stolen from @the kidcrash

 

[iamacyborg]



The real future in manufacturing is going to be in automation. Not making things more artisanal and hand made but taking the human touch out of it. Not that I promote that sort of thing but that's the way it's going, especially on a mass scale. You'll be seeing this in the footwear industry (sneakers) within the next 2-4 years.

I think we'll pretty soon start seeing some sort of consumer backlash against all the "artisanal" stuff we're seeing. Not that artisan-made things will disappear but there will be a major rebranding, probably towards high-tech, scientific, machine made, etc stuff.