Random fashion thoughts - Part II (A New Hope)

[g transistor]

I mean I'm not going to lie and say that my ranting isn't fueled with some nonsense. I know that barbecue model isn't going to work everywhere or for everyone, it's just something I really appreciate.

One thing I do think Chang is smart about is the sort of chain-restaurant thing that can be replicable elsewhere without compromising quality of food and service. My favorite burger joint in Atlanta is now a chain across like 6 states.

And I think maybe that would be an interesting concept for clothing, too. A sort of quality-within-reach type of thing that has a bit higher-prices with better design, construction, etc. But I guess I just kind of described what J. Crew is for most people

 

[bows1]

was it @nicelynice That has Elena Dawson pieces? I was looking at that stuff today and man its beautiful

 

[t3hg0suazn]

^agreed, and I really was pleasantly surprised that the pricing is not over the top at all. @AlexanderTG owns a few pieces.

 

[penanceroyaltea]

I think you're looking for guy burgess

 

[nicelynice]

@AlexanderTG has an Elena blazer too

Nice stuff, just not for me

 

[the shah]

She ruins everything with the absurd button placement

edit: @LA Guy what is going on here

 

[NaTionS]

Haider Ackermann why you so expensive???

 

[jet]



I mean I'm not going to lie and say that my ranting isn't fueled with some nonsense. I know that barbecue model isn't going to work everywhere or for everyone, it's just something I really appreciate.

One thing I do think Chang is smart about is the sort of chain-restaurant thing that can be replicable elsewhere without compromising quality of food and service. My favorite burger joint in Atlanta is now a chain across like 6 states.

And I think maybe that would be an interesting concept for clothing, too. A sort of quality-within-reach type of thing that has a bit higher-prices with better design, construction, etc. But I guess I just kind of described what J. Crew is for most people

When i have the capital I think I'm going to attempt something like this.

 

[ClambakeSkate]



A lot of them don't have technical skills, but that's neither here nor there.  Even if they were sewing and cutting geniuses, and did all the samples themselves, at some point, the designs have to be sent to factories for production.  I don't see what is the issue here.  This is scarcely a new model, and definitely not the reason that the luxury market price ceiling has been steadily increasing in just the last decade and a half.

This is the post that I had so much trouble with...

I'm sorry @LA Guy but your whole post is so flawed and infuriating I don't have the time to dig into at them moment. Maybe tomorrow.

And here I am...

Zara is a vertically integrated company that owns everything from the factories to the points of distribution.  You still have your stylist/designers.  They just happen to work for the same organization as the sample makers, as the factories, as the stores, etc...

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

I'm not sure how a smaller company, even one with a lot of "skill", however you define that, can duplicate what Zara does without a huge investment in infrastructure that they may not have the resources to commit to.  A lot of small designers are working off little or no credit as it stands.

Not questioning that a lot of designers don't seem to give a lot of thought about how to take their companies beyond the 4-6 collection seasonal model into the 21st century, but I don't think that asking them to think like Zara is a viable thing.  There are some companies that have tried other models.  Some appear to be somewhat successful, numerous others are case studies in how not to do things (Nastygal) aka how to lose a ton of VC money in no time flat.

That is false. Inditex also uses a large supply chain of third party contract manufacturers and logistics partners for many of its international markets. They are not completely vertically integrated.

OK, Sorry, Zara was not the best example and I used it a bit hyperbolically, but still, their model is very strong. When they own the factories, they cut one mark-up of their product out of the pricing equation. That's huge especially when each step of mark-up comes in at around 3X.

And I can use smaller companies as examples that operate in this same way, in fact, many of the brands you mentioned fall into this category.

Merz B Schwanen. They own their own knitting equipment, no? I am assuming they own the workshop where the clothes are assembled as well. Maybe I'm wrong.

Inverallan. Yep, they farm out their "production" to the little old ladies in the town or wherever, but those ladies aren't working for anyone else, so they are essentially employees of Inverallan. This company was mentioned in this very thread several times a few posts before mine.

Lewis Leathers. Again, often mentioned and recognized as a great "maker" but not designer. NO, they are designers as well, and moreso than many designers because they have the knowhow to build their creations.

Zam Barrett. Maybe not as widespread as others, but you must respect that he is operating his own factory in Brooklyn. Nobody else is doing that. He is one of the few "artisanal" brands that doesn't rely on outside factories to make his things. Do you really think all those other Continues family brands are skilled craftsmen? I used to think so too, until I found out that they are able to exist because of the connections they made while Carpe Diem was in operation and somehow those small italian factories are still willing to make their small production orders. But that's also why designs never change. The development cost is too high when you have no skill of your own to make prototypes and cannot explain to the teams in the industrial factories how to do certain things that are not the "normal" way of doing them.

Hermes is a good example too. They are very closed in production/funding/workforce (at least they were, I haven't looked into them lately). It's a strong model that has kept them strong in the industry. I am hopeful that Christophe Lemaire will carry some of that thinking into his brand and into the next generation. But, then again, he's working for Uniqlo, so...

And can we please look at shoemakers? Why is it that it is more normal for shoe companies to produce their own goods than clothing. Alden. Viberg. Dayton. Even Allen Edmonds operates their own factories. And of course all of the CM shoe brands which I will not claim to know anything about. And cowboy boot makers. I would guess that a lot of them make their product in house, but, again, I don't know. Why is this more normalized for shoes than for clothes? Because people just do what they're told is normal and don't try to think for themselves or take the time to learn the skills.

I'm certainly interested in your POV

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

, but having dug into the financials of numerous small brands, I just don't see obvious solutions to the problems that plague many small companies.  There is only so much that can be done with limited resources, even assuming that everyone on the team is willing to do whatever it takes to succeed.

I guess that the thing I'd be most interested in is how you can link the increase in the price of fashion to issues with the typical production model of fashion brands that predates the past 15 years or so.  Maybe the combination of that model and the changes in distribution because of the internet has something to do with the price increases, but I've not heard a convincing argument there either.

AND YES, it certainly has changed a huge amount in the last 15 years. Who is the most "important" designer to come around in those last 15 years? Raf Simons? Probably. Can he make anything? I don't think so. He is a stylist. And all this generation of designers idolize him.

Alexander McQueen was technically very skilled. As is John Galliano. I'd say that the Atwerp 6 had a certain amount of technical skill and have proven to have long lasting successes. Ann D and MM quit when they felt they'd had enough; they went out "on top" if you want to call it that. Dries is still going strong (but he is old and will realistically not be around forever). Walter Van B is still going strong in his own little fantastical world. Dirk B went nuts a while back when he got involved in the italian fashion industry machine (another argument to keep things internal). That is the last generation of important designers. What about the previous generation? I won't even go into how devastating(hyperbole) it was when Alexander Wang was appointed as the head of Balenciaga, Cristobal Balenciaga being (arguably) the most important designer in history, and A Wang making a name for himself by being a beautiful man and having cool hair and selling $200 tshirts that his family paid to produce. That was the most disrespectful fashion event of the last 10 years. And now that other yahoo that's running it? YIKES.

And one more example I'd like to bring up is Rick Owens. He is smart. He does have technical skills. He can create and make his own work. But at a time his company grew so much that, as LA Guy puts it, he did the same thing everyone else would have done and started working with factories. But now, he (owens corp) has bought the factory in Italy that has been producing their work (rumored to be the one and only Olmar and Mirta) so he (or Michele Lamy) is realizing that he must produce in his own factory. It's the only future for a company which has already grown a lot, but wants to continue that trajectory. It's smart. And I think with those capabilities he will be able to create much more interesting work in the future.

I have more to say, but I'd rather keep this as a discussion and not turn it into the rantings of a bitter lunatic.

 

[dieworkwear]



This is the post that I had so much trouble with...
And here I am...

OK, Sorry, Zara was not the best example and I used it a bit hyperbolically, but still, their model is very strong. When they own the factories, they cut one mark-up of their product out of the pricing equation. That's huge especially when each step of mark-up comes in at around 3X.

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

And I can use smaller companies as examples that operate in this same way, in fact, many of the brands you mentioned fall into this category.

Merz B Schwanen. They own their own knitting equipment, no? I am assuming they own the workshop where the clothes are assembled as well. Maybe I'm wrong.

Inverallan. Yep, they farm out their "production" to the little old ladies in the town or wherever, but those ladies aren't working for anyone else, so they are essentially employees of Inverallan. This company was mentioned in this very thread several times a few posts before mine.

Lewis Leathers. Again, often mentioned and recognized as a great "maker" but not designer. NO, they are designers as well, and moreso than many designers because they have the knowhow to build their creations.

Zam Barrett. Maybe not as widespread as others, but you must respect that he is operating his own factory in Brooklyn. Nobody else is doing that. He is one of the few "artisanal" brands that doesn't rely on outside factories to make his things. Do you really think all those other Continues family brands are skilled craftsmen? I used to think so too, until I found out that they are able to exist because of the connections they made while Carpe Diem was in operation and somehow those small italian factories are still willing to make their small production orders. But that's also why designs never change. The development cost is too high when you have no skill of your own to make prototypes and cannot explain to the teams in the industrial factories how to do certain things that are not the "normal" way of doing them.

Hermes is a good example too. They are very closed in production/funding/workforce (at least they were, I haven't looked into them lately). It's a strong model that has kept them strong in the industry. I am hopeful that Christophe Lemaire will carry some of that thinking into his brand and into the next generation. But, then again, he's working for Uniqlo, so...

And can we please look at shoemakers? Why is it that it is more normal for shoe companies to produce their own goods than clothing. Alden. Viberg. Dayton. Even Allen Edmonds operates their own factories. And of course all of the CM shoe brands which I will not claim to know anything about. And cowboy boot makers. I would guess that a lot of them make their product in house, but, again, I don't know. Why is this more normalized for shoes than for clothes? Because people just do what they're told is normal and don't try to think for themselves or take the time to learn the skills.
AND YES, it certainly has changed a huge amount in the last 15 years. Who is the most "important" designer to come around in those last 15 years? Raf Simons? Probably. Can he make anything? I don't think so. He is a stylist. And all this generation of designers idolize him.

Alexander McQueen was technically very skilled. As is John Galliano. I'd say that the Atwerp 6 had a certain amount of technical skill and have proven to have long lasting successes. Ann D and MM quit when they felt they'd had enough; they went out "on top" if you want to call it that. Dries is still going strong (but he is old and will realistically not be around forever). Walter Van B is still going strong in his own little fantastical world. Dirk B went nuts a while back when he got involved in the italian fashion industry machine (another argument to keep things internal). That is the last generation of important designers. What about the previous generation? I won't even go into how devastating(hyperbole) it was when Alexander Wang was appointed as the head of Balenciaga, Cristobal Balenciaga being (arguably) the most important designer in history, and A Wang making a name for himself by being a beautiful man and having cool hair and selling $200 tshirts that his family paid to produce. That was the most disrespectful fashion event of the last 10 years. And now that other yahoo that's running it? YIKES.

And one more example I'd like to bring up is Rick Owens. He is smart. He does have technical skills. He can create and make his own work. But at a time his company grew so much that, as LA Guy puts it, he did the same thing everyone else would have done and started working with factories. But now, he (owens corp) has bought the factory in Italy that has been producing their work (rumored to be the one and only Olmar and Mirta) so he (or Michele Lamy) is realizing that he must produce in his own factory. It's the only future for a company which has already grown a lot, but wants to continue that trajectory. It's smart. And I think with those capabilities he will be able to create much more interesting work in the future.

I have more to say, but I'd rather keep this as a discussion and not turn it into the rantings of a bitter lunatic.

I agree you usually get better value when you can buy direct from the manufacturer (assuming the manufacturer sells directly to the public, and does good design work). But I don't know if the business model is that different unless you're talking about haute couture or something. Didn't the designers you cited still use outsourced factories? And if not them, certainly at least the streetwear companies I used to work with in the 90s all did what people do now. They design something in a computer program and send it off to a cut-and-sew factory for production. Obv a different kind of business from Margiela or McQueen, but even in legit streetwear (like, not SWD streetwear), prices have skyrocketed.

Same with Hermes bags, Chanel bags, etc. It's across the board. Hermes has been making their own stuff for decades, at least for bags, and you see the same inflation.

I just assume most brands have always operated the way they operate now. Even if the designer knows how to cut, he has specialists for that. Then that stuff gets outsourced to a factory, no? The model where factories are starting to build house lines to smooth out production schedules actually seems very new.

In that sense, I don't think you can use a constant variable to explain a changing variable. (The constant variable being biz models; changing variable being that rapid price inflation)

 

[ClambakeSkate]

The constant variable is that skilled makers are dying off (literally) and the ones left can charge whatever they want. Even in China... 10-15 years ago it was super cheap to produce in China, but since then they've realized that they have all the power because they are the only ones willing to do production and have raised prices A LOT in the last 15 years.

A good example is Martin Greenfield. What would happen if, one day, Martin Greenfield decided he'd had enough, liquidized the company and went off to live in Costa Rica and be a beach bum? Maybe some of his employees would try to take on some of his clients, but they're all old too. It's structurally weak, the whole system.

If designers woke up and weren't just sheep they could build something for themselves and futureproof the industry.

 

[Zamb]

I'm certainly interested in your POV, but having dug into the financials of numerous small brands, I just don't see obvious solutions to the problems that plague many small companies. There is only so much that can be done with limited resources, even assuming that everyone on the team is willing to do whatever it takes to succeed.

I guess that the thing I'd be most interested in is how you can link the increase in the price of fashion to issues with the typical production model of fashion brands that predates the past 15 years or so. Maybe the combination of that model and the changes in distribution because of the internet has something to do with the price increases, but I've not heard a convincing argument there either.

there are a ton of reasons, they are not simple and some are often spoken of while others are not considered..........

too tired now but i will get into a few in the morning when my brain is coherent.........

 

[Kid Nickels]

I don't have anything of substance to add, but I do find this discussion of business models and such very interesting.

And of course I'm fascinated with anticipation at what fantastic BBQ joint/clothing operation @jet is going to launch.

 

[Zamb]

The constant variable is that skilled makers are dying off (literally) and the ones left can charge whatever they want. Even in China... 10-15 years ago it was super cheap to produce in China, but since then they've realized that they have all the power because they are the only ones willing to do production and have raised prices A LOT in the last 15 years.

A good example is Martin Greenfield. What would happen if, one day, Martin Greenfield decided he'd had enough, liquidized the company and went off to live in Costa Rica and be a beach bum? Maybe some of his employees would try to take on some of his clients, but they're all old too. It's structurally weak, the whole system.

If designers woke up and weren't just sheep they could build something for themselves and futureproof the industry.

Yes and new blood not coming in because the culture and society that made great artisans is now dead.
I also think that a lot of customers seem to not give a sheeet about the level of work that goes into making good products and so the balk at the prices and many designers are forced to cut corners or find cheaper means of production to get the work done.
I think this may be one of the reasons why Ann Walked away (just my speculation) as she could no longer stand behind the product that bore her name Anyone who knows quality and was an Ann D. Fan for a long time could see the difference in the product from early 00 compared to the last few years before she left......

 

[Kid Nickels]



I also think that a lot of customers seem to not give a sheeet about the level of work that goes into making good products and so the balk at the prices and many designers are forced to cut corners or find cheaper means of production to get the work done.

This is certainly true … and diminishes to the point where it's more profitable to just rip it off and make whatever it is out of the cheapest materials/means possible a'la Forever 21, ABS, etc knockoff artists.