** Quintessential Crockett & Jones Thread ** (reviews, quality, etc...)

[aquatherm]

The colour on these is very versatile. Check out some pics of the Edward Green Galway in Rosewood or Cheaney Pennine, which are a similar colour. I have the Cheaneys and they go with everything.

Extremely versatile colour. The rust tends more to brown than red and will go with jeans, green, brown, grey khaki and navy trousers.
I find rough out quite soft out of the box, btw. Not as soft as suede mind you.
I just wish they’d had those Radnors in Rust Grain in my size.

I looked in the Rosewood Galway and tried to find as many pictures the Radnor on Instragram but only found the Russian Grain. I also considered the Chestnut Skye in the past but bought the Eskdales instead because the suede felt more suited to my style at the time. I really do like the colour of the RGL and if I worked in an office then it would be an instant buy but at this point in my life it would get used very little. I bought a pair of RMW last April and I probably wore it less than 10 times so I guess I should break them in first!

 

[jazznpool]

For you men who have completed an individual MTO, does the shoe/ boot automatically become handgrade? I ask because I was quoted an upcharge of $550usd from New York store on a remake of a discountinued Chelsea 5 boot (black milled calf) that sells for $700usd. I also received no response from the UK regarding my inquiry and I emailed the main office, Canary Wharf and the 77 Jermyn Street store.

 

[Humpty_Dumpty_Rises]

For you men who have completed an individual MTO, does the shoe/ boot automatically become handgrade? I ask because I was quoted an upcharge of $550usd from New York store on a remake of a discountinued Chelsea 5 boot (black milled calf) that sells for $700usd. I also received no response from the UK regarding my inquiry and I emailed the main office, Canary Wharf and the 77 Jermyn Street store.

"Handgrade" is a clever marketing term and tactic they came up with at some point in the late 19th century or early 20th century. All it can technically imply is that something is of utmost highest quality. In the case of C&J they have a collection called "handgrade" which is a superior line/range of shoes and boots that are higher priced.

 

[Pascal1980]

"Handgrade" is a clever marketing term and tactic they came up with at some point in the late 19th century or early 20th century. All it can technically imply is that something is of utmost highest quality. In the case of C&J they have a collection called "handgrade" which is a superior line/range of shoes and boots that are higher priced.

Hello Humpty_Dumpty_Rises,

the history of the handgrade collection C&J describes as a line original developed for John Lobb Paris:

"The origins of the Hand Grade Collection are derived from this requirement for something finer. The collection as we know it today officially launched 25 years ago, in 1997, when Crockett & Jones opened its first flagship retail store on London’s Jermyn Street. In fact, this top grade specification and the skill of manufacturing required was born a decade earlier. After developing top grade collections for John Lobb (Paris) in the late 1980’s.

Lobbs bespoke division, alongside Jonathan Jones’ manufacturing prowess, created new lasts and patterns suitable for bulk production. Crockett & Jones produced the first read-to-wear collection displayed by John Lobb (Paris), and so successful was the pairing that at one point Crockett & Jones was producing nearly 10,000 pairs a year for the brand. As Lobb’s success grew and they continued to expand, as did our own aspirations to own and run a retail division. Unable to keep up with the production demand, the relationship, although successful and amicable, ended. Thankfully, all good things don’t have to come to an end, and this relationship ultimately paved the way for what is now known as the Hand Grade Collection."

Collections Explained: The Hand Grade Collection

A fine collection of fine footwear. Refined in every way, from the last to the upper leather. A top grade collection, made on some of the best fitting lasts the English shoe trade has ever seen.

eu.crockettandjones.com

Hence I like in particular the 373 last of the handgrade collection and have 6 shoes from that collection I enjoy wearing. It is also together with the shoe trees under the 1000€ threshold, which is my personal limit to spend on a pair of shoes. The shoes are great, no doubt about it!

Best regards

Pascal

 

[Humpty_Dumpty_Rises]

Hello Humpty_Dumpty_Rises,

the history of the handgrade collection C&J describes as a line original developed for John Lobb Paris:

"The origins of the Hand Grade Collection are derived from this requirement for something finer. The collection as we know it today officially launched 25 years ago, in 1997, when Crockett & Jones opened its first flagship retail store on London’s Jermyn Street. In fact, this top grade specification and the skill of manufacturing required was born a decade earlier. After developing top grade collections for John Lobb (Paris) in the late 1980’s."

Collections Explained: The Hand Grade Collection

A fine collection of fine footwear. Refined in every way, from the last to the upper leather. A top grade collection, made on some of the best fitting lasts the English shoe trade has ever seen.

eu.crockettandjones.com

Hence I like in particular the 373 last of the handgrade collection and have 6 shoes from that collection I enjoy wearing. It is also together with the shoe trees under the 1000€ threshold, which is my personal limit to spend on a pair of shoes. The shoes are great, no doubt about it!

Best regards

Pascal

Thanks @Pascal1980. The John Lobb connection is interesting.

I was referring to only the word "handgrade" as being a marketing/branding term in the context of Jazznpools question

In the case of shoemakers they DO actually put the word to effect in coming up with a more superior product. I gave one example of C&J who call it literally the "handgrade" range. Cheaney for instance calls it the "Imperial" range. And so on.

Referring to Jazznpool's question then: going down the MTO root gives you a single made to order shoe that is made to the highest of standards. Whether you can or can't label it as being "handgrade" is just semantics or symbolism. It shouldn't matter should it. Or should it ?

 

[Satmoche]

For you men who have completed an individual MTO, does the shoe/ boot automatically become handgrade? I ask because I was quoted an upcharge of $550usd from New York store on a remake of a discountinued Chelsea 5 boot (black milled calf) that sells for $700usd. I also received no response from the UK regarding my inquiry and I emailed the main office, Canary Wharf and the 77 Jermyn Street store.

I went the MtO route and you have two options, you can either opt for the bench grade skins, or their hand grade. The latter is naturally more expensive. I don't think that adding a dainite or vibram sole would add more. Bear in mind that shoe trees will not be included in the price.
Furthermore, the 'design' of the shoe must be approved. I had made a pair of shoes which looks like a Hardwick - keeping the split toe, but with a rounder last, the Cavendish one. Once I paid, C&J sent the request to the factory as they would not want a style which does not echo with their style and ethos. I hope this makes sense.

 

[Pascal1980]

I went the MtO route and you have two options, you can either opt for the bench grade skins, or their hand grade. The latter is naturally more expensive. I don't think that adding a dainite or vibram sole would add more. Bear in mind that shoe trees will not be included in the price.
Furthermore, the 'design' of the shoe must be approved. I had made a pair of shoes which looks like a Hardwick - keeping the split toe, but with a rounder last, the Cavendish one. Once I paid, C&J sent the request to the factory as they would not want a style which does not echo with their style and ethos. I hope this makes sense.

Thanks Satmoche,

may I ask what you paid for the MTO shoes? I guess it is much more expensive than the MTO programs offered by Carmina or TLB Mallorca.

What are the differences in the upper leathers for the benchgrade and handgrade MTO program? Do they really use the top-tier leather only for the handgrade collection & MTO shoes?

Best regards

Pascal

 

[Daimler1989]

Thanks Satmoche,

may I ask what you paid for the MTO shoes? I guess it is much more expensive than the MTO programs offered by Carmina or TLB Mallorca.

What are the differences in the upper leathers for the benchgrade and handgrade MTO program? Do they really use the top-tier leather only for the handgrade collection & MTO shoes?

Best regards

Pascal

FYI: My wife had an MTO 2 years ago, Molly boot in Chocolate Hurricane Hide. Retail price for the standard (Black Calf) was about 675 €, the MTO was prized about 840 € plus German VAT/customs fee (about 215 € then). Main reason for the price increase are the consequences of Brexit and that MTO other than the stock items you can buy online at C&J do not apply to the DTP programme.

 

[jazznpool]

I went the MtO route and you have two options, you can either opt for the bench grade skins, or their hand grade. The latter is naturally more expensive. I don't think that adding a dainite or vibram sole would add more. Bear in mind that shoe trees will not be included in the price.
Furthermore, the 'design' of the shoe must be approved. I had made a pair of shoes which looks like a Hardwick - keeping the split toe, but with a rounder last, the Cavendish one. Once I paid, C&J sent the request to the factory as they would not want a style which does not echo with their style and ethos. I hope this makes sense.

I'm simply asking for a boot currently in production, the Chesea 5, but with black milled calf which was discontinued 2 years ago. They still use black milled calf in other shoes or a similar scotch grain. The MTO quote from New York is $1250, $550 more than the current Chelsea 5 sells for. I'm okay with the dainite sole but would prefer single leather sole.

 

[unknown_user]

Thanks Satmoche,

may I ask what you paid for the MTO shoes? I guess it is much more expensive than the MTO programs offered by Carmina or TLB Mallorca.

What are the differences in the upper leathers for the benchgrade and handgrade MTO program? Do they really use the top-tier leather only for the handgrade collection & MTO shoes?

Best regards

Pascal

Regarding the leather, I believe pretty much all shoes from Loake 1880 level upwards use top grade leather from the tanneries. I believe the tanneries package the leather up into parcels of (for example) 80% grade 1, 20% Grade 2 skins or perhaps 40% Grade, 60% Grade 2 skins if it is a lower price tier 2 package etc.
The difference in the quality between the higher priced shoe manufacturers (and shoes produced at different levels within a manufacturer) is firstly in the amount of leather used from each skin and secondly the skill of the clicker in selecting the best bits of the hide.
So, for handgrade C&J shoes it is likely that they will be more selective when they choose the leather panels for the uppers than they will when producing benchgrade shoes. Naturally this raises the price though perhaps not as much if they can use some of the discarded leather on the lower grade shoes (I don't know if this last bit actually happens).
What it does mean is that the benchgrade shoes will likely have the same quality leather as the handgrade for some panels at least (or all of the shoe if you're lucky) but are more likely to have compromises and lower quality in some areas.
Similarly, if you're lucky you might get equally good leather in the Loake 1880 shoe but as they'll likely use more of the hide and comprise to a greater degree this is less likely to happen.

 

[PairOfDerby's]

Crockett and Jones don't buy direct from the tanneries. They buy from distributors and a batch of hides can come from several tanneries.

 

[unknown_user]

Yes. From distributors like AA Crack (who own CF Stead I believe). The top grade skins though are still made up of good and bad bits of leather. They'll use top grade skins but it is still down to how much of it is used and the clicker's skill.
With the lower quality bits being sold off or used elsewhere in the shoe.

 

[PairOfDerby's]

Yes, and the lower grade leather is used as stiffener in quality shies. Some now use plastic, unfortunately.

 

[unknown_user]

I probably explained my point badly, so I apologise. My point was that the leather used in handgrade is coming from the same skins as used in benchgrade manufacturing. So it all depends on what is selected and the care of the clicker on that day. Whether an MTO uses better leather quality is a moot point.
However, it has occurred to me that as the product is being made separately from the main production line (different leather, last etc.) you might receive a little more care than the routine models being produced or perhaps it will be examined to higher standards by the QC person to make sure it meets the specs.