Perforating my EG's after the fact

[Henry Boogers]

Originally Posted by TCN

I suppose, although I'd like to vet it before I make an ass of myself on the phone. Truth be told, I was hoping for something definitive, which I thought we were trending toward in the begining.

With any luck the person on the other end of the phone will have a similar sense of humor to those on this forum and it will not be apparent that you are making an ass of yourself. If you call please record, upload to youtube and post here. Same if you attempt the modification yourself.

 

[SkinnyGoomba]

Originally Posted by chrisb0109

That is highly dependent on who is operating the drill press.

Try a luthier.

Thanks for the tip.

 

[chrisb0109]

Originally Posted by DWFII

I don't know...I'm not a drill press man myself but I seriously doubt that one could control a drill press, in terms of depth of cut, cleanliness of cut, and "wandering", well enough to do a credible job. Leather doesn't respond well to a drill press. DAMHIKT




It is very possible, though if it was not his initial go to method, I doubt he would have the skill and practice to do so successfully.

Originally Posted by SkinnyGoomba

Thanks for the tip.

No problem

 

[TCN]

Originally Posted by DWFII

Really, though...I guess it's just different eyes...the way I read it several people gave you good reasons why it wasn't a good idea. Bengal Stripe and...who was it? Journeyman?...gave you technical explanations why it wouldn't work well. That seemed pretty definitive to me.

Some others posted snarky comments as well as a veiled suggestion that it was like trying to pinstripe a suit after the fact. That seemed cautionary if nothing else.

I don't know...I'm not a drill press man myself but I seriously doubt that one could control a drill press, in terms of depth of cut, cleanliness of cut, and "wandering", well enough to do a credible job. Leather doesn't respond well to a drill press. DAMHIKT

And drill press or laser, if the cut is even a millimeter too deep you will damage the next layer down...in this case the toe stiffener. A microsecond later and you will ventilate the shoe entirely, although admittedly, doing so will perhaps provide some convenient drainage holes should you decide to go wading for crawdads.

I thought the thread was amusing...if nothing else. But when you intimated that you would rather spend another $500.00 to destroy the shoe...rather than sell the shoe and buy something you are happier with...it just seemed to me that you had already made up your mind.

Perhaps I needed a ;-) after some of my later responses. I genuinely had the question in the beginning, and what I've taken away is that it really can't be done without virtually rebuilding the shoe (which as someone put forth, IS possible) which would be economically unwise. What I added was the thought that if I'm not wearing them because of the lack of holes, then something like $500 to salvage a pair of good shoes isn't horrible. A pair of Grants would run me $1000+ right? But my guess is that it would cost a lot more.

 

[SkinnyGoomba]

Originally Posted by TCN

Jesus Christ, whoosh. Drill press my good man.

I've operated bridgeport milling machines and drill dresses, and all I have to say is that you're going to have some really 'distressed' EG's when you are done.

This is going to be like performing a face-lift with a hunting knife and a stapler.

 

[voxsartoria]

I wonder if StyleForvm members with the opposite experience...having perforated shoes that they later filled/spackled...could be so kind as to chime in. How did it go? What about color and patina matching?

And has anyone had mandals rewoven into seamless wholecuts?

For a balanced view, we need to hear from both sides.

Thank you.


- B

 

[DWFII]

Originally Posted by chrisb0109

It is very possible, though if it was not his initial go to method, I doubt he would have the skill and practice to do so successfully.
Well, like I said, leather doesn't respond well to drilling. That's why we use punches. But I'd like to see the drill bit that could make a clean cut in leather (on a curved surface) and not cut any deeper than the upper leather and not wander. I think it was you that suggested a brad point bit but while a brad point will not wander and might cut relatively cleanly (again it's leather not wood) the brad point tip would certainly cut through the toe stiffener before the hole in the upper was completely cut through.

 

[TCN]

Originally Posted by DWFII

Well, like I said, leather doesn't respond well to drilling. That's why we use punches. But I'd like to see the drill bit that could make a clean cut in leather (on a curved surface) and not cut any deeper than the upper leather and not wander.

I think it was you that suggested a brad point bit but while a brad point will not wander and might cut relatively cleanly (again it's leather not wood) the brad point tip would certainly cut through the toe stiffener before the hole in the upper was completely cut through.

Ignorant question here, but I've seen luthiers drill tiny pilot holes on the tops of violins to guide them in planing them down. Could you do something like that verrrrrrrry carefully?

***** this is academic only at this point ******

 

[DWFII]

Originally Posted by TCN

Ignorant question here, but I've seen luthiers drill tiny pilot holes on the tops of violins to guide them in planing them down. Could you do something like that verrrrrrrry carefully? ***** this is academic only at this point ******
OK...academically... [And again, I'm a shoemaker not a luthier. I'm sure...and I invite...someone with better information to correct me.] Drill bits have to have some way to stay centered. On common drill bits the working end is sharpened to somewhat of a point (it's more complicated than that but...), so that when the drill is bottomed out...at whatever depth...the hole will have a concave bottom. So to cut through a thin veneer...leather or wood... requires that an underlying layer be cut as well to some extent. Brad points...the most commonly used for precise cuts in wood have an extended point--like a "pilot" nail attached to the end of the bit. If the luthier is aware of his drill bit, he most likely will compensate so that by the time he has planed off the concavity at the bottom of his hole, the wood will have been leveled to the proper thickness. Perhaps it goes without saying that "corrective" planing doesn't really apply on the toe of a shoe. I do work some wood...mostly turning awl handles but also bowls and vases, although it has been a while...but, that said, I'm ready to be schooled in a drill bit or technique that can do this job credibly in leather.

 

[TCN]

Now I understand. Interesting.

 

[chrisb0109]

Originally Posted by DWFII

OK...academically... [And again, I'm a shoemaker not a luthier. I'm sure...and I invite...someone with better information to correct me.] Drill bits have to have some way to stay centered. On common drill bits the working end is sharpened to somewhat of a point (it's more complicated than that but...), so that when the drill is bottomed out...at whatever depth...the hole will have a concave bottom. So to cut through a thin veneer...leather or wood... requires that an underlying layer be cut as well to some extent. Brad points...the most commonly used for precise cuts in wood have an extended point. If the luthier is aware of his drill bit, he most likely will compensate so that by the time he has planed off the concavity at the bottom of his hole, the wood will have been leveled to the proper thickness. Perhaps it goes without saying that "corrective" planing doesn't really apply on the toe of a shoe. I do work some wood...mostly turning bowls and vases, although it has been a while...but, that said, I'm ready to be schooled in a drill bit or technique that can do this job credibly in leather.
Having not done this specifically, I can't say that it would definitely work. You are right in your basic evaluation of the brad point. However, in addition to an extended center point, brad points also have extended peripheral points which serve as the beginning of the flutes. Effectively, they cut from the out edge in, rather than starting the cut with a convex point (like a regular bit). This quality is what gives a hole made with a brad point such a defined edge. There is really no tearing force on the surrounding material since it has already been cut by the extended peripheral points. Anyway, that is why I say it could likely create a clean enough hole. THis also combats the problem you brought up if the peripheral points are long enough in comparison to the center point (this varies quite a bit by brand). The thinness of the leather may be able to be cut around the edge by the points without having the plunge deep enough to actually shave away the hole.

 

[DWFII]

Originally Posted by chrisb0109

Having not done this specifically, I can't say that it would definitely work. You are right in your basic evaluation of the brad point. However, in addition to an extended center point, brad points also have extended peripheral points which serve as the beginning of the flutes. Effectively, they cut from the out edge in, rather than starting the cut with a convex point (like a regular bit). This quality is what gives a hole made with a brad point such a defined edge. There is really no tearing force on the surrounding material since it has already been cut by the extended peripheral points. Anyway, that is why I say it could likely create a clean enough hole. THis also combats the problem you brought up if the peripheral points are long enough in comparison to the center point (this varies quite a bit by brand). The thinness of the leather may be able to be cut around the edge by the points without having the plunge deep enough to actually shave away the hole.
You make good points...but on every brad point bit I've ever seen the "brad" was longer than the flutes. Am I wrong? Additionally, I am still doubtful about the cleanliness of the cut. I understand how brad points work and I love them...for wood. A very firm leather, such as outsoling, might respond similarly to wood. But on an upper leather all it takes is one tiny patch of slightly loose fiber and suddenly, even very sharp flutes are pulling fibers out of the fiber mat and not cutting them. That will leave a ragged edge to the holes. All I got to say is that "I'm from Missouri...you got to show me."

 

[TCN]

I might have a pair of cheap cap-toes to donate to the trial phase . . .

 

[chrisb0109]

Originally Posted by DWFII

You make good points...but on every brad point bit I've ever seen the "brad" was longer than the flutes. Am I wrong?

Additionally, I am still doubtful about the cleanliness of the cut. I understand how brad points work and I love them...for wood. A very firm leather, such as outsoling, might respond similarly to wood. But on an upper leather all it takes is one tiny patch of slightly loose fiber and suddenly, even very sharp flutes are pulling fibers out of the fiber mat and not cutting them. That will leave a ragged edge to the holes.

All I got to say is that "I'm from Missouri...you got to show me."

Those are questions I can't answer. I do not work with leather, and am only think theoretically.

Yes, brad points will always have a slightly longer center point. This method could never have the same results as punching before assembling the shoe. I only wonder whether it would be a possible solution after the fact.

 

[SkinnyGoomba]

You would need something that would have to cut on the outside edge only.

A brad point will pierce the underlying layer before cutting the top layer through, so something like a coring bit would work better. In theory, in practice it would likely fail just the same.