Luxury clothes of the past

[JohnMRobie]

Isn't lighter fabric more of a function of better building insulation, generally warmer climates, and the prevalence of indoor heating? I can see why people appreciate the heftier fabric used to make clothing in the past, but they're not very practical nowadays if you have to live/work in spaces shared with other people.

Also if we are talking luxury and quality - it seems odd to conflate durability with luxury. The vintage weavers couldn’t even imagine something like the 10 micron fabric from Zegna that they made a whopping 14 lengths of or something like 300/2 Culinan shirting from DJA.

 

[DapperDan15]

Interesting on the fit. Who was your cutter at Poole? Re: quality of construction on bespoke shoes - You can get identical construction and materials without going bespoke now.

I’ll disagree on the fabrics. They’re different for sure but that’s a very different discussion from quality.

Craig Featherstone cut mine, although I understand he's since gone on to start his own tailoring house. Agreed on the shoes, which is mainly why I haven't shelled out for bespoke up until now.

 

[DapperDan15]

Isn't lighter fabric more of a function of better building insulation, generally warmer climates, and the prevalence of indoor heating? I can see why people appreciate the heftier fabric used to make clothing in the past, but they're not very practical nowadays if you have to live/work in spaces shared with other people.

Oh, I'm not suggesting that heavier equals better. Certainly older fabrics used to be heavier, but the warmth and durability are somewhat secondary.

I think it depends on the clothes and what you're looking for out of them. I appreciate lighter weight worsted suits, but I prefer heavier flannels and tweeds.

 

[comrade]

I've heard this numerous times from older tailors and mens wear commentators
that heavier fabrics, I am not referring to those of 100 years ago, but from 30-40
years ago draped better, maintained their shape, etc, were even easier to worth with.
I do not say this from personal experience, beause I've never actually bought the
lightweight garments now being sold.

 

[Frog in Suit]

If I may jump into this conversation, from the point of view of an older man, with experience in buying bespoke suits, shirts and shoes…

I agree about the changes in purchasers’ tastes and cloth weights and their causes, the former no doubt due to civilizational changes (casualization, if you will, and fathers no longer telling their sons how they should dress…), the latter because of technology (very light wool suiting cloths did not exist, then, and central heating was not universally available).

Another important reason we cannot now find high quality (bespoke…) suits, shirts, shoes, etc., or , rather, we cannot find them within a price range most of us can afford, is the availability of qualified labour. To become a coat, waistcoat or trouser maker, to learn to assemble shoes… takes a long, poorly paid, apprenticeship. There was once a large supply of young working-class men and women willing to face it, and face the prospect of a life spent doing piecework for tailoring, shoemaking, shirtmaking. If they were good at it, and worked quickly enough, they could make a decent living, more comfortable than in construction or heavy industry. Nowadays, there have many other options. The few ones who stay in the trade demand higher wages.

As a result, qualified labour, which represents the largest cost component of luxury clothing, is becoming ever rarer and more expensive. Hence, the core clientele is no longer made up of middling types like myself, but international plutocrats 🙂.

 

[epsilon22]

If I may jump into this conversation, from the point of view of an older man, with experience in buying bespoke suits, shirts and shoes…

I agree about the changes in purchasers’ tastes and cloth weights and their causes, the former no doubt due to civilizational changes (casualization, if you will, and fathers no longer telling their sons how they should dress…), the latter because of technology (very light wool suiting cloths did not exist, then, and central heating was not universally available).

Another important reason we cannot now find high quality (bespoke…) suits, shirts, shoes, etc., or , rather, we cannot find them within a price range most of us can afford, is the availability of qualified labour. To become a coat, waistcoat or trouser maker, to learn to assemble shoes… takes a long, poorly paid, apprenticeship. There was once a large supply of young working-class men and women willing to face it, and face the prospect of a life spent doing piecework for tailoring, shoemaking, shirtmaking. If they were good at it, and worked quickly enough, they could make a decent living, more comfortable than in construction or heavy industry. Nowadays, there have many other options. The few ones who stay in the trade demand higher wages.

As a result, qualified labour, which represents the largest cost component of luxury clothing, is becoming ever rarer and more expensive. Hence, the core clientele is no longer made up of middling types like myself, but international plutocrats 🙂.

From my perspective, there's definitely growing demand from younger (at least by this forum's standards) generation who are interested in classic menswear not due to social/professional requirements, but more as a hobby. At least I've seen in East and Southeast Asia there are menswear stores popping up in recent years, and the number of cities visited by traveling tailors seems to have increased too. This is of course concentrated on larger cities with higher average income levels, since these things do cost money, though not necessarily plutocrats-level money.

As I've said earlier in this thread, it's definitely not enough to reverse the trend back to what you guys saw during your younger days, but at the same time I don't think the craft is dying right now. If there's not enough supply to meet demand, then prices will increase, potentially enticing younger craftspeople to enter the field. I think there may be a shift from bespoke tailors/shoemakers having fancy-looking storefronts at the most expensive streets in the city to smaller workshops and craftspeople advertising through instagram and traveling to meet clients in big cities though, real estate prices in big cities may make it prohibitively expensive to maintain such storefronts.

Whether this demand is enough to sustain the craft over the long run, I don't know. After all, a middle class corporate slave like me won't be able to place as many orders as a Russian oligarch or a Middle Eastern oil prince. I do wonder what the clientele makeup of top European tailoring/shoemaking firms look like, I imagine it must be quite top-heavy with the tiny percentage at the top accounting for a huge chunk of the volume.

 

[Son Of Saphir]

If I may jump into this conversation, from the point of view of an older man, with experience in buying bespoke suits, shirts and shoes…

I agree about the changes in purchasers’ tastes and cloth weights and their causes, the former no doubt due to civilizational changes (casualization, if you will, and fathers no longer telling their sons how they should dress…), the latter because of technology (very light wool suiting cloths did not exist, then, and central heating was not universally available).

Another important reason we cannot now find high quality (bespoke…) suits, shirts, shoes, etc., or , rather, we cannot find them within a price range most of us can afford, is the availability of qualified labour. To become a coat, waistcoat or trouser maker, to learn to assemble shoes… takes a long, poorly paid, apprenticeship. There was once a large supply of young working-class men and women willing to face it, and face the prospect of a life spent doing piecework for tailoring, shoemaking, shirtmaking. If they were good at it, and worked quickly enough, they could make a decent living, more comfortable than in construction or heavy industry. Nowadays, there have many other options. The few ones who stay in the trade demand higher wages.

As a result, qualified labour, which represents the largest cost component of luxury clothing, is becoming ever rarer and more expensive. Hence, the core clientele is no longer made up of middling types like myself, but international plutocrats 🙂.

There is also the case of people who do a short shoemaking course or spend 6 weeks working with a top cordwainer and then advertise themselves as a bespoke shoemaker and ask $4,500 for shoes despite having no experience. These are all younger people, and they all want the glory without having put in the work. I have known of others who work with tailors and want there name on the door after 1 year.

The funniest situation was when l was visiting the last maker and all these teenage girls come in dressed up with their makeup and nails done. You see, they all wanted to be footwear designers. I bet they got a shock when they opened the door and realised they would be learning in a dirty old factory. It all looks glamorised on the internet, however it is anything but. Of course they all want to charge big money without having made a name for themselves.

 

[Miles R.]

Seems this thread conflates luxury, quality, expensive and exclusivity.

Agreed. Not long ago I strayed into a Nordstrom store for the first time in years and noticed all the displays of high-priced clothing with the names of the designers on it—trendy stuff that doesn't need to last long, because it will be out of fashion in short order. You could spend a lot of money there, but you wouldn't be getting anything of lasting value.

 

[Frog in Suit]

From my perspective, there's definitely growing demand from younger (at least by this forum's standards) generation who are interested in classic menswear not due to social/professional requirements, but more as a hobby. At least I've seen in East and Southeast Asia there are menswear stores popping up in recent years, and the number of cities visited by traveling tailors seems to have increased too. This is of course concentrated on larger cities with higher average income levels, since these things do cost money, though not necessarily plutocrats-level money.

As I've said earlier in this thread, it's definitely not enough to reverse the trend back to what you guys saw during your younger days, but at the same time I don't think the craft is dying right now. If there's not enough supply to meet demand, then prices will increase, potentially enticing younger craftspeople to enter the field. I think there may be a shift from bespoke tailors/shoemakers having fancy-looking storefronts at the most expensive streets in the city to smaller workshops and craftspeople advertising through instagram and traveling to meet clients in big cities though, real estate prices in big cities may make it prohibitively expensive to maintain such storefronts.

Whether this demand is enough to sustain the craft over the long run, I don't know. After all, a middle class corporate slave like me won't be able to place as many orders as a Russian oligarch or a Middle Eastern oil prince. I do wonder what the clientele makeup of top European tailoring/shoemaking firms look like, I imagine it must be quite top-heavy with the tiny percentage at the top accounting for a huge chunk of the volume.

I agree with the points you make. I would only add:

For most tailors / shoemakers…, it is not worth it to pay rent for prime real estate in London (or wherever). More and more are either regrouping with colleagues / competitors under a single roof, or moving upstairs. Who really needs a shop when you can communicate with your customers via Instagram, email, whatever (I got left behind the progress of technology a LONG time ago…) and you fly to meet them on a different continent three or four time a year? Especially when you can’t be sure that there will be enough orders to cover your costs in future.

What is being lost, however, and will not return, is the sheer number of “makers”, either employed on the tailor’s premises, or at home. There was a depth of talent which is slowly disappearing, especially, I should think, for more specialized or more repetitive (“boring”?) skills. A book (The Savile Row Story, Richard Walker, 1988 – highly recommended, although a bit old) mentioned, even then, the difficulty in locating a buttonhole lady…That means that the remaining makers can command higher wages (relative to the rest of the population). I am all for tailors / shoemakers / shirtmakers making decent money, but it also means I am paying more for my clothes (or not buying any).

There was a time, before mine, I presume, when most men of the middle class had their clothes made by a tailor, whether in Mayfair or the provinces if British. Nowadays, it’s either an aficionado (like forum participants), a plutocrat or (rich) aristocrat, from the US, the Middle East or anywhere else.

 

[Frog in Suit]

There is also the case of people who do a short shoemaking course or spend 6 weeks working with a top cordwainer and then advertise themselves as a bespoke shoemaker and ask $4,500 for shoes despite having no experience. These are all younger people, and they all want the glory without having put in the work. I have known of others who work with tailors and want there name on the door after 1 year.

The funniest situation was when l was visiting the last maker and all these teenage girls come in dressed up with their makeup and nails done. You see, they all wanted to be footwear designers. I bet they got a shock when they opened the door and realised they would be learning in a dirty old factory. It all looks glamorised on the internet, however it is anything but. Of course they all want to charge big money without having made a name for themselves.

Very true. Young cutters, as soon as they are trained (or trained enough by their own standard…) want to branch out and make money for themselves. It is the same things for shoemakers.

As a counter example, however, I would mention somebody like Emiko Matsuda, who made my bespoke shoes while at Foster’s, before setting out on her own. She was, I think, and must still be, I am sure, a first-class shoemaker. But then, she had paid her dues…

 

[epsilon22]

Very true. Young cutters, as soon as they are trained (or trained enough by their own standard…) want to branch out and make money for themselves. It is the same things for shoemakers.

As a counter example, however, I would mention somebody like Emiko Matsuda, who made my bespoke shoes while at Foster’s, before setting out on her own. She was, I think, and must still be, I am sure, a first-class shoemaker. But then, she had paid her dues…

Honestly I don't particularly care about this, market competition will weed out the ones who don't have the skills to back their price lists.

If someone studied for only 6 weeks at a top shoemaker's workshop and is somehow skilled enough to be able to demand $4.5K for their shoes, and there is enough demand to sustain the business, then they deserve it, simple as that.

To begin with, how many such shoemakers are even out there? Emiko Matsuda, Nicholas Templeman, Daniel Wegan worked at top firms for many years before going independent. I'd love to see the works of these people asking for $4.5K only after working for 6 weeks at top firms.

 

[JohnMRobie]

There was a time, before mine, I presume, when most men of the middle class had their clothes made by a tailor, whether in Mayfair or the provinces if British. Nowadays, it’s either an aficionado (like forum participants), a plutocrat or (rich) aristocrat, from the US, the Middle East or anywhere else.

This gets back to the major flaw in the premise of this entire thread which compares entry level to the top.

I posted the statistic somewhere in this thread about the absolute height of shoe making pre-industrial revolution where fewer than 3% of shoemakers were doing bespoke work in England.

Were people having their shoes and tailoring made for them? Sure. But was it good work? The people who could afford it when to the good houses, sure, but the people below them maybe went to a sloppier maker using worse materials - hence the introduction of the word cobbler. The people below them having them made by their wives at home or being reliant second hand goods. Bespoke tailoring was still a luxury even before RTW.

The idea that the majority, or even a large minority was having good bespoke work done is just not accurate. When we are back from holiday I’ll find some time to go through our family storage and look for the receipts and records on some of the bigger houses in the late 19th and early 20th century.

If I recall the last time I looked - in addition to the cost of the suits/shoes, the tickets I found for the trip to get to England for the fittings and then a trip back to bring things home was roughly the equivalent of the average annual salary.

 

[Son Of Saphir]

Honestly I don't particularly care about this, market competition will weed out the ones who don't have the skills to back their price lists.

If someone studied for only 6 weeks at a top shoemaker's workshop and is somehow skilled enough to be able to demand $4.5K for their shoes, and there is enough demand to sustain the business, then they deserve it, simple as that.

But it is really a facade. These young people are naive and think they can be like the instagram shoemakers imo. Some of us warn them not to get into handmade shoes because there is not the market for it here, but they ignore the advice and go for it. Before long the reality hits them. They start to do various leather work crafts and they do cheap shoemaking for theatre companies and become a jack of all trades. They need to charge high prices for a handmade shoe because cost of living is so high here, but no one will pay that price because they lack the skills needed. They advertise themselves on websites getting any work they can.

Example 1
Made some shoes about 8 years ago on unattractive lasts, then gave it up to make bags. Recently decides to call himself a shoemaker again, but no shoes to show. Charges $4,500

Example 2
No proper training, and it shows, but did do a 6 week course with a bespoke shoemaker. Only gets some work making for theatre companies making glued shoes on orthopedic like lasts. Seems to be a capable bottom maker when she made 3 or 4 pairs for some people over 12 months ago, but nothing since. Charges $4,500.

Example 3
Highly trained in shoemaking and also worked at Fosters and Ugolini. Could make a shoe with the best of them, but couldn't make a shoe that fits. He was a shoemaker, but not a bespoke shoemaker. Didn't spend enough time learning lastmaking, didn't pay his dues imo. Charged $2,800. Gave it away sadly because it didn't pay enough.

 

[epsilon22]

But it is really a facade. These young people are naive and think they can be like the instagram shoemakers imo. Some of us warn them not to get into handmade shoes because there is not the market for it here, but they ignore the advice and go for it. Before long the reality hits them. They start to do various leather work crafts and they do cheap shoemaking for theatre companies and become a jack of all trades. They need to charge high prices for a handmade shoe because cost of living is so high here, but no one will pay that price because they lack the skills needed. They advertise themselves on websites getting any work they can.

Example 1
Made some shoes about 8 years ago on unattractive lasts, then gave it up to make bags. Recently decides to call himself a shoemaker again, but no shoes to show. Charges $4,500

Example 2
No proper training, and it shows, but did do a 6 week course with a bespoke shoemaker. Only gets some work making for theatre companies making glued shoes on orthopedic like lasts. Seems to be a capable bottom maker when she made 3 or 4 pairs for some people over 12 months ago, but nothing since. Charges $4,500.

Example 3
Highly trained in shoemaking and also worked at Fosters and Ugolini. Could make a shoe with the best of them, but couldn't make a shoe that fits. He was a shoemaker, but not a bespoke shoemaker. Didn't spend enough time learning lastmaking, didn't pay his dues imo. Charged $2,800. Gave it away sadly because it didn't pay enough.

That's precisely my point, market competition will take care of this. If they don't have what it takes to charge the prices they ask, they just won't get enough business to sustain the career. They'll either lower their prices, pivot into different types of work or find some kinds of niche like you mentioned, or probably even change career completely.

 

[comrade]

From my perspective, there's definitely growing demand from younger (at least by this forum's standards) generation who are interested in classic menswear not due to social/professional requirements, but more as a hobby. At least I've seen in East and Southeast Asia there are menswear stores popping up in recent years, and the number of cities visited by traveling tailors seems to have increased too. This is of course concentrated on larger cities with higher average income levels, since these things do cost money, though not necessarily plutocrats-level money.

As I've said earlier in this thread, it's definitely not enough to reverse the trend back to what you guys saw during your younger days, but at the same time I don't think the craft is dying right now. If there's not enough supply to meet demand, then prices will increase, potentially enticing younger craftspeople to enter the field. I think there may be a shift from bespoke tailors/shoemakers having fancy-looking storefronts at the most expensive streets in the city to smaller workshops and craftspeople advertising through instagram and traveling to meet clients in big cities though, real estate prices in big cities may make it prohibitively expensive to maintain such storefronts.

Whether this demand is enough to sustain the craft over the long run, I don't know. After all, a middle class corporate slave like me won't be able to place as many orders as a Russian oligarch or a Middle Eastern oil prince. I do wonder what the clientele makeup of top European tailoring/shoemaking firms look like, I imagine it must be quite top-heavy with the tiny percentage at the top accounting for a huge chunk of the volume.

About 20 years ago on a quiet rainy weekday morning I had a conversation with Savile Row
legend Brian Lishak, then at Huntsman, about the business aspect of high-end bespoke tailors.
At the time, he said that the majority of clientele were non-British with a predominance of
Americans, who were in London regularly. Next were their continental counterparts, many of
whom had access to local bespoke but preferred Savile Row. My understanding is that Savile
Row and other centers of the craft relied heavily on immigrant craftsmen who came from low
wage countries which still trained skilled workers. In the early 20th century many such tailors
in the Row were Eastern European jews. I am not aware of the current immigrant source, if
there is one in particular.