Luxury clothes of the past

[DapperDan15]

Which article was it?

Here it is: http://tuttofattoamano.blogspot.com/2009/12/henry-poole-co.html

As several commenters pointed out, the suit lacked a customer label and was likely made-to-measure rather than bespoke. Alternatively, the customer could have ordered machine padding.

The author's update states that management was unaware of any machine padding, and insisted to their tailors afterwards that all work be done by hand. I think that rather makes for a better situation all round than the original mistake implies.

 

[JJ Katz]

An interesting thread with interesting comments. Just a few points from me:

• There are still plenty of ultra-expensive, ultra-luxury garments of all types on offer. Perhaps more concentrated in a few 'world cities' or via online sources but they exist.
• What has changed a lot is the readiness of middle- to upper-middle class people to spend big bucks on 'elegant' clothes. There has clearly been a steady drift towards ever greater informality, convenience and levelling down where clothes are concerned.
• In terms of specific retail channels, I think the combination of those factors makes a change in delivery mechanism inevitable. It's a bit like the hospitality industry. There are still plenty of large, grand, luxe hotels and restaurants but the 'taste leader' are oriented more towards smaller, still quite exclusive boutique hotel and restaurants which project an (arguably fake) chilled vibe.

 

[DapperDan15]

I mean, yeah sure, but you can't really complain about people dressing sloppily (by Western classical menswear standards) while wanting exclusivity. The vast majority of people who were born in recent decades probably didn't even come from the Western world, let alone from families who can teach them about formal/businesswear and introduce them to these tailors.

For every child born to a family who patronize the likes of Cleverley, there's probably dozens if not hundreds born to families where the father doesn't even know how to tie a necktie, not least in places where Western menswear wasn't even the norm for formal/business dressing until recently. If you think it's okay to slam the doors on these people for whom the internet is probably the only source of information about dress codes and menswear, then you have no right to complain about how most people only wear hoodies, sweatpants, and sneakers today.

I don't think Joe running errands in his nondescript coat and dirty sneakers is doing so because he has no access to better information. He's just more comfortable that way.

It seems a bit of a stretch to attribute people's preferences to ignorance, especially since the shift to casual started before the internet.

 

[epsilon22]

I don't think Joe running errands in his nondescript coat and dirty sneakers is doing so because he has no access to better information. He's just more comfortable that way.

It seems a bit of a stretch to attribute people's preferences to ignorance, especially since the shift to casual started before the internet.

Fair point, that was a poor example, probably should've used lack of understanding of dress codes and menswear rules instead, like what details should be done on dinner suits, business suits, casual suits, what accessories/shoes to wear with them, and things related to construction quality like canvas vs fused, welted shoes vs glued. These are all things I've learned from the internet and asking craftspeople who were patient enough to answer stupid questions from a clueless kid who just got out of school.

 

[DapperDan15]

Fair point, that was a poor example, probably should've used lack of understanding of dress codes and menswear rules instead, like what details should be done on dinner suits, business suits, casual suits, what accessories/shoes to wear with them, and things related to construction quality like canvas vs fused, welted shoes vs glued. These are all things I've learned from the internet and asking craftspeople who were patient enough to answer stupid questions from a clueless kid who just got out of school.

Your post did make me think, though, about how many people used to learn things about clothing from their fathers and how that's not as common anymore. But that really started with the Boomers. It just takes one generation to break away from traditions or crafts before a lot of knowledge is lost for good.

 

[Ypuh]

Your post did make me think, though, about how many people used to learn things about clothing from their fathers and how that's not as common anymore. But that really started with the Boomers. It just takes one generation to break away from traditions or crafts before a lot of knowledge is lost for good.

I don't really believe that. In some cases yes, in other cases no.

To my understanding, the GYW footwear world is booming. Not for all brands, but the amount of new (high quality) footwear companies during the last decade or two is like an evolution. For tailored suits or tie-companies it may be more difficult, but there's always going to be a need for suits and I also see more people splashing out for that one wedding suit.

I'm 34 myself, and see lots of people my age interested in watches, knitwear, handmade leather products etc. looking at platforms like Etsy. I do agree the 'formal wear' is in a downfall, but there's still a demand to look presentable in an office, only now it's a sweater or leather bag rather than a shirt or tie.

 

[epsilon22]

Your post did make me think, though, about how many people used to learn things about clothing from their fathers and how that's not as common anymore. But that really started with the Boomers. It just takes one generation to break away from traditions or crafts before a lot of knowledge is lost for good.

I think the tailors and shoemakers who post their work online on social media, and forums such as this, reddit, local online communities are helping bring in new people who are interested in classic menswear, but it's not enough to counter the overall trend towards casualization.

We probably won't go back to where wearing the suit is the norm, but I certainly don't see the craft of tailoring, shoemaking, leatherworking, etc. dying out as long as there are new people coming in.

 

[DapperDan15]

I don't really believe that. In some cases yes, in other cases no.

To my understanding, the GYW footwear world is booming. Not for all brands, but the amount of new (high quality) footwear companies during the last decade or two is like an evolution. For tailored suits or tie-companies it may be more difficult, but there's always going to be a need for suits and I also see more people splashing out for that one wedding suit.

I'm 34 myself, and see lots of people my age interested in watches, knitwear, handmade leather products etc. looking at platforms like Etsy. I do agree the 'formal wear' is in a downfall, but there's still a demand to look presentable in an office, only now it's a sweater or leather bag rather than a shirt or tie.

I'm not saying that the suit world is dying. Just that more men used to learn how to dress in that way from their fathers, and since the boomer generation that hasn't really been true (since it was cool to break from tradition, etc).

My own grandfather was never seen in public without a suit, often a three-piece, and a tie. My boomer father broke away from his upbringing and doesn't really care for any of this stuff today, but luckily my mother and grandfather still taught me how to dress. Contrast this with a sibling's wedding last year, where I had to teach three male relatives how to tie their ties properly. Their fathers hadn't taught them either.

 

[DapperDan15]

I think the tailors and shoemakers who post their work online on social media, and forums such as this, reddit, local online communities are helping bring in new people who are interested in classic menswear, but it's not enough to counter the overall trend towards casualization.

We probably won't go back to where wearing the suit is the norm, but I certainly don't see the craft of tailoring, shoemaking, leatherworking, etc. dying out as long as there are new people coming in.

But that's my point. Think about how much interest had to be directed, delvings undertaken, and pains staked on these things in order to keep them alive. Past decades weren't filled with bespoke artisans making works of art for Tim from Idaho, but there were still large amounts of skilled craftsmen and a whole clothing industry in Canada/the USA. People pay a lot today for the best English tailoring because the skills handed down to the tailors (from working under the older tailors) are worth the cost to them. But even if we re-vamped the entire shoe, clothing, and textile industry we used to have in North America overnight, I think we'd struggle to find enough people who are capable of running those machines, stitching that bag, etc.

More on topic: I think the issue of people not being willing to spend as much today on elegant clothing is one of taste, not means. People simply don't value nice clothes as much as they used to, and part of this might have to do with it not being valued by the people who raised them or by their social circle/aspirational icon.

 

[epsilon22]

But that's my point. Think about how much interest had to be directed, delvings undertaken, and pains staked on these things in order to keep them alive. Past decades weren't filled with bespoke artisans making works of art for Tim from Idaho, but there were still large amounts of skilled craftsmen and a whole clothing industry in Canada/the USA. People pay a lot today for the best English tailoring because the skills handed down to the tailors (from working under the older tailors) are worth the cost to them. But even if we re-vamped the entire shoe, clothing, and textile industry we used to have in North America overnight, I think we'd struggle to find enough people who are capable of running those machines, stitching that bag, etc.

More on topic: I think the issue of people not being willing to spend as much today on elegant clothing is one of taste, not means. People simply don't value nice clothes as much as they used to, and part of this might have to do with it not being valued by the people who raised them or by their social circle/aspirational icon.

Yeah I agree, it's definitely not a matter of affordability, we just need to look at the amount of money people spend on designer clothing/shoes with obnoxious branding, or the number of people playing the Patek/Rolex game of buying half a dozen watches before you could get off some wait list on popular models.

My previous argument was mostly addressed to Son of Saphir. Being secretive and exclusive won't be doing any favor to this already declining niche part of the clothing industry.

 

[Ypuh]

Post #15 kinda sums it all up for me already. People in the western world buying 68 new garment per year, on average. That was 2017, sort of pre-Temu and Aliexpress. You can be sure the average person does not own a single sweater over $100 or pair of shoes over $300.

On the other hand, there are the Asian markets. On average the Europeans still dress better, but there's a (much) large(r) upcoming Asian community that values dressing up and quality compared to Europe. The US is difficult to assess for me since I've never been there. You have some finance bubbles like New York, but outside of those I think American's historically have spent less on their appearance.

Luxury clothes of the past

People had a lot less money in the 1970's and 80's, and cities had a lot less people, yet retail stores stocked expensive things and quality far better than most things available today. Even countries not known for quality had small shopping strips that stocked Ballanyne jumpers and Vicuna...

www.styleforum.net

 

[DapperDan15]

Post #15 kinda sums it all up for me already. People in the western world buying 68 new garment per year, on average. That was 2017, sort of pre-Temu and Aliexpress. You can be sure the average person does not own a single sweater over $100 or pair of shoes over $300.

On the other hand, there are the Asian markets. On average the Europeans still dress better, but there's a (much) large(r) upcoming Asian community that values dressing up and quality compared to Europe. The US is difficult to assess for me since I've never been there. You have some finance bubbles like New York, but outside of those I think American's historically have spent less on their appearance.

Luxury clothes of the past

People had a lot less money in the 1970's and 80's, and cities had a lot less people, yet retail stores stocked expensive things and quality far better than most things available today. Even countries not known for quality had small shopping strips that stocked Ballanyne jumpers and Vicuna...

www.styleforum.net

Right, but I think the idea of the thread is to talk about why that's the case? Like, Western people used to spend a lot more of their money, proportionately, on their clothing. At the very least, they cared about their appearance and would repair and spruce up older items. These days that's no longer true for most.

I've always been curious about the Asian market. It's great that they value Western tailoring, but given that the suit is essentially traditional dress for Western countries, I wonder how well, say, kimono industries are doing in the East. Are their own traditional forms of luxury clothing following the same patterns?

 

[comrade]

Your post did make me think, though, about how many people used to learn things about clothing from their fathers and how that's not as common anymore. But that really started with the Boomers. It just takes one generation to break away from traditions or crafts before a lot of knowledge is lost for good.

I learned from my father, who wore expensive, understated RTW and MTM
"trad" clothes. He was a prosperous dentist and small-time real estate investor
in NYC, whose parents were poor immigrants from the Russian Empire. He
taught himself how to dress in the late 20s and 30s. Most of his friends and
colleagues dressed more mainstream for the time and did not affect the
"old money" style that my Dad did. He was also very well-read and cultured
for his peer group. As a young intellectual snob who would attend an Ivy
League university, I immersed myself in the Ivy style that was then dominant
among elite college-bound students. More clothes -oriented than most of my friends,
who wore some version of the Ivy uniform and still do,, I returned from my first trip to
London at age 20 with a bunch of detached-collar dress shirts. I then learned
that the laundry I used had no idea how to do them.

 

[shoefan57]

People had a lot less money in the 1970's and 80's, and cities had a lot less people, yet retail stores stocked expensive things and quality far better than most things available today. Even countries not known for quality had small shopping strips that stocked Ballanyne jumpers and Vicuna coats. There were numerous shops that sold expensive clothing items, and people paid the money for them. There was a market for these things, and this was decades before the internet was invented. These days there isn't a market for the expensive things in various countries anymore, people have forgotten about luxury clothing, and people are not prepared to save money for the expensive items like they used to. People are not buying from the top shops like they used to because they don't understand why things are priced so high, so over time these shops and tailors disappear. One retailer told me that Ballantyne jumpers were $550 in 1983, and at least a couple of retailers sold these jumpers in the 70's and 80's in my backwater country. Most retailers wouldn't dare sell things like that these days in your average city.

Lets discuss this - how luxury has been forgotten - how cheap manufacturing has turned people into cheap stakes - how retail now sells mediocre quality - how most of the great tailors have disappeared.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. When I think of the nearest city to where I grew up, the big department store only stocked high quality clothes and shoes. There was also an Aquascutum shop which sold only made in UK clothes that lasted my parents a life time, a Jaeger shop similarly, Austin Reed - again v high quality in the 60s and 70s and many more. As well as beautiful jewellery shops and furniture shops. The dept store now only sells high priced tat, Austin Reed went down market and then bust, Aquascutum has gone from the city after a flirtation with high priced low quality designer look, Jaeger is now owned by Marks and Spencer etc. what’s replaced these stores are shops that appeal to the fashion conscious who have no interest in the quality of their clothes nor footwear. Luxury, in my view, now has nothing to do with quality .

 

[Beadhead]

I don't think this analysis gets at the declining quality of luxury today, though. Why is it impossible to find high quality items in small towns, where they used to be stocked? Why are people unwilling to pay higher prices for things today, even though the cost might still be proportionate to what people paid in the past?

In my experience, people who fall into the "designer luxury" category aren't thinking very much about rejecting the unwritten rules of "old money." They're copying what they think is good taste.

I think your question pertains to the decline of the middle class, which is compelled to spend an ever increasing portion of their income on housing and other essentials that less money is left over to spend on quality clothing and footware. Consequently, cheaper, less well made clothing and footwear becomes the social norm. And as society as a whole becomes more casual in dress, finely tailored clothing becomes unfashionable in most social circles.