Legal Jobs?

[DLester]

Originally Posted by sartorialism

My case: About to graduate from a T14 school, which I attended on a 1/4 scholarship, with good grades and all. But I still have no offers.

Does not surprise me at all.

Originally Posted by deaddog

Note that the 113k cited is US Dept of Labor number for ALL lawyers, not starting salary. Other than biglaw, starting salaries are much, much lower. Google around for "bimodal distribution" and "law students" and check out the truly depressing news. And, I won't even go into placement numbers for grads of less expensive law schools outside of T-20

Pay appears to be an upside down bell curve.

Originally Posted by bdbb

*

Your arguments have some validity but you say them in such an obnoxious manner that you are unlikely to convince anyone. Poor advocacy.

For anyone who wants to know, the correct answer is: no one should start law school right now. The door to the profession is closed.

 

[deaddog]

Originally Posted by DLester

For anyone who wants to know, the correct answer is: no one should start law school right now. The door to the profession is closed.

I think this is an overstatement - not a crazy overstatement but not completely accurate. Top 10%, maybe 15% at T-6, maybe even T-14, will be more likely than not able to get biglaw jobs. If you're not in that group and you have to pay for law school and you don't have a job waiting for you in a relative's well-established firm - then you ought to think long and hard before about going to law school unless its been your dream since you were a small child. Maybe we'll get another hiring bubble but not anytime soon.

And, don't be swayed by guys telling you that law school won't require 200K in loans. Do your research - tuition at Southwestern in LA is 41, at Cardozo in NY is 47, Kent in Chicago is 42. Add in living expenses (12 mos b/c summer jobs are tough to get) and books and you're getting really close to 200 - and maybe more giving the cost of living in these cities. And these are, at best, mid-level schools that will not give you even a hope of biglaw (ok, maybe during good times, Cardozo guys get a shot but Kent or Southwestern, virtually impossible).

 

[Meis]

Originally Posted by deaddog

Note that the 113k cited is US Dept of Labor number for ALL lawyers, not starting salary. Other than biglaw, starting salaries are much, much lower. Google around for "bimodal distribution" and "law students" and check out the truly depressing news. And, I won't even go into placement numbers for grads of less expensive law schools outside of T-20
Once again, yes, I know that. I never claimed it was the average for recent grads. The % of recent graduates employed is just as depressing, along with the methods that law schools use to keep the numbers up, ex- giving grads 2-4 week job at the law school just in time for them to check employed on their 9 months after graduation survey. -Apparently U.S. news has challenged the aba on the employment data standards recently, but I'm not expecting too much change...

 

[Meis]

Originally Posted by deaddog

And, don't be swayed by guys telling you that law school won't require 200K in loans. Do your research - tuition at Southwestern in LA is 41, at Cardozo in NY is 47, Kent in Chicago is 42. Add in living expenses (12 mos b/c summer jobs are tough to get) and books and you're getting really close to 200 - and maybe more giving the cost of living in these cities. And these are, at best, mid-level schools that will not give you even a hope of biglaw (ok, maybe during good times, Cardozo guys get a shot but Kent or Southwestern, virtually impossible).
As far as cost - -You picked out some of the higher priced non-top-25 schools that also happen to be in major cities. Most midrange (say ranked 40-100) schools are going to be a few grand under those, somewhere in the 30-40k range, and schools not in mid-size cities (Detroit etc) are another step lower, and so on. -You aren't accounting for savings that people have from before law school, and other earnings (yes summer assoc. jobs are extremely rare for people at the schools you mentioned but lots of people get jobs clerking at small/mid firms or non-law jobs which don't pay much, but they are enough to cancel out living during that time). -The cost of living estimates that school's give are usually quite high. Which isn't completely unreasonable-I was surprised how many of the people I went to school with lived in expensive areas of the city during school. But my point is - you don't have to do that, and can live much cheaper than the school's estimates Like you said though, people need to do their research- every school is different and each person's situation is unique. EDIT: I'm not saying that there isn't a portion of people out there that take out 200k in loans for law school, I'm sure some do. But that's a very small portion of law students. Average law school debt is about 100k

 

[munchausen]

I would agree that you probably should not go to a TTT school, but a lot of this is fed by the paranoia of upper-middle class law students that they may not get the 120k a year entry level biglaw job that they clearly deserve.

I went to a school at the low end of the top 50. Got a half ride. I have a lot of debt, and my ROI might have been bigger in terms of money if I had spent that time and money pursuing other professions. Then again, I didn't do it just for the money. I think that's what people really need to figure out: do I want to be a lawyer, or do I just want a job that will make me loaded. Because if it's the latter, there are better things to do with your time.

 

[deaddog]

Originally Posted by munchausen

I I think that's what people really need to figure out: do I want to be a lawyer, or do I just want a job that will make me loaded. Because if it's the latter, there are better things to do with your time.

100% agreed

 

[DLester]

Originally Posted by munchausen

I think that's what people really need to figure out: do I want to be a lawyer, or do I just want a job that will make me loaded. Because if it's the latter, there are better things to do with your time.
Regardless of how someone answers this question, they should not go to law school right now unless they have a guaranteed job upon graduation or are in a very unusual situation. They should get a job for a few years, then go back when/if things improve. There are just not enough jobs for people who really really want to be lawyers. And at the lower end there are some really rotten jobs that are probably worse than no job at all. This is a PSA, people can do with it what they will. Anyone in law school or just out: network network network.

 

[Meis]

Originally Posted by DLester

Regardless of how someone answers this question, they should not go to law school right now unless they have a guaranteed job upon graduation or are in a very unusual situation. They should get a job for a few years, then go back when/if things improve. There are just not enough jobs for people who really really want to be lawyers. And at the lower end there are some really rotten jobs that are probably worse than no job at all.

This is a PSA, people can do with it what they will.

Anyone in law school or just out: network network network.

This is very true. There's a bunch of really horrible jobs that can be found on sites like shitlawjobs.com... or just by browsing craigslist. There's plenty of employers offering incredibly ****** compensation for legal work.. probably because they know that they can do so and still get dozens if not hundreds of interested (and qualified) applicants.

An example-

Small PI/WC firm will hire person with experience advocating for injured persons. We have PI/WC cases of all sizes, but every day is filled with diverse intense challenges. Candidate MUST HAVE EXPERIENCE in PI or WC. Trial experience a plus, but willing to work long hours, to be extremely efficient, and to be satisfied initially with paralegal pay is required. Send short cover letter explaining why you fit this job with resume.

Location: Loop
Compensation: $10-12/hour

Also- as far as the "people should get a job for a few years and then go to law school"; I know a good chunk of people that I went to colllege with that are doing the exact opposite. They graduated undergrad, and despite good grades and internships they couldn't find any work... so they went to law school ( at which point I pretty much go

why didn't you tell me, I could've talked you out of it)

 

[otc]

Originally Posted by munchausen

I would agree that you probably should not go to a TTT school, but a lot of this is fed by the paranoia of upper-middle class law students that they may not get the 120k a year entry level biglaw job that they clearly deserve.

I went to a school at the low end of the top 50. Got a half ride. I have a lot of debt, and my ROI might have been bigger in terms of money if I had spent that time and money pursuing other professions. Then again, I didn't do it just for the money. I think that's what people really need to figure out: do I want to be a lawyer, or do I just want a job that will make me loaded. Because if it's the latter, there are better things to do with your time.

This.

If you want to make a bunch of money for your long hours in biglaw without really caring about being a lawyer (and probably have no interest of seeing a courtroom or "helping people" once you end up slinging documents for M&A deals)...then it is going to be really hard if you don't go to a top school. How far on top it needs to be seems to always be a couple slots below whatever school the douche giving advice went to.

If you actually want to be a lawyer...don't try to go to a ****** school, but there are a lot more options. I've got a friend going to a school at the bottom end of the top 50...but his mom is a judge, his dad is a lawyer (at least one is an alumni) and he actually wants to be a lawyer too. I think he will do just fine even though biglaw is almost entirely off the table.

Also, people seem to be ignoring flagship state law schools. If you know what state you want to practice in, they tend to be cheaper (especially if you live there) and place people well into local firms. Again, it is not the key to biglaw, but they won't do you wrong if you actually want to be a lawyer.

 

[Sebastian_Flyte]

Do ANYTHING but law school. Seriously, spend 3 years in any job known to man, spend a fifth of law school tuition in extra classes or paying experts to teach you their job, and you will be making more and happier in life than 99% of recent and future JDs.

People, STOP GOING TO ******* LAW SCHOOL!

 

[yerfdog]

Originally Posted by Sebastian_Flyte

Do ANYTHING but law school. Seriously, spend 3 years in any job known to man, spend a fifth of law school tuition in extra classes or paying experts to teach you their job, and you will be making more and happier in life than 99% of recent and future JDs.

People, STOP GOING TO ******* LAW SCHOOL!

Yeah, people balk at spending any money on nonschool but they are willing to take out 100K in debt to get school training at a mediocre school.

 

[sartorialism]

Originally Posted by otc

Before spending 3 years and a boatload of money (TANSTAAFL...opportunity cost)...

why don't you go work at a law firm or some other firm that works very closely with lawyers (litigation consulting, trial services, whatever)?

Seems like a bit of basic research that a lot of people completely fail to do before choosing law school.

I found legal practice much more enjoyable than law school. You might love your job only to go to law school, burn yourself out and become resentful.

Originally Posted by SaveMeJebus

Op, what law school you graduating from? GW 2004 here. Just curious.

GULC

 

[crazyquik]

This thread has jumped the shark.

 

[kxk]

nm

 

[Gene Parmesan]

The US legal sector seems even more over-saturated than in the UK. That notwithstanding, I have a quick question regarding the procedure of moving from the UK to the US to practice law. Am I right in saying that three years of legal education are required to even consider practicing law in the US? If so, this might be problematic as I'm going a different route: a three year undergrad degree followed by the GDL (a condensed version of our LLB's) and the LPC (to qualify as a solicitor). With that in mind, what are my options if I still wanted to give it a shot (which I probably don't, to be honest, as I'm lucky enough to have got a job over here!) Just out of curiosity, really.