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shoefan

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Regarding the issue of foot scans, 3D printers, etc. I believe that it is/could be feasible to create a scanning/'artificial intelligence' system that could generate 'bespoke' lasts. The issue is not whether it is, conceptually, feasible, but rather whether it will happen, and I would suggest that it won't happen for a long time, if ever. The cost and challenges inherent in creating such a system are substantial, and there is likely to be a pretty small market for such a product if it were developed. Most people are reasonably satisfied with their existing shoes, and the cost and complexity of making shoes on customized lasts and then shoes on those lasts would be far more than most people would be willing to pay. Contrast this with artificial intelligence/learning systems in the context of medical care. Unlike shoes, current medical care is expert intensive, the cost of that human expertise (doctors) is high, and the impact of human error can be huge. Further, the benefits of scale economies/fixed costs from automated solutions could be profound. So, there are both cost and potential quality benefits to such a system.

Now, the question of what, in the context of shoes, is 'bespoke.' In my opinion, bespoke shoes are fundamentally dependent on having a customized/personalized last, be it made from a block of wood, last 'blank,' or an altered factory last. Typically, because a shoe pattern should be made based on the exact last on which the shoe will be made, the shoe pattern, and hence upper, will be made from scratch as well, but I can see a 'bespoke' shoe being offered in only certain styles, which would allow more efficient pattern creation as some parts of the pattern can use standard patterns.

The particular technologies/techniques used in the production of the shoe (hand welted vs. GYW vs Blake, hand sewn vs machine sewn vs glued outsole, hand clicked vs. laser cut, etc) seem to me to be less applicable to whether or not the shoe is 'bespoke,' although these differences will clearly influence the desirability of such a shoe. IMO, the notion is the same as the notion of what is a bespoke suit -- I would suggest it is the creation of a unique pattern for the customer, based on the customer's measurements, desires, etc. How that suit is then sewn (fused vs. half canvas vs. full canvas, machine pad-stitched vs. hand pad-stitched, etc) doesn't affect whether the suit is bespoke, though the differences will clearly affect the perceived value of such an offering.
 

DWFII

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These might be of some interest, both taken from 'Leather in Life Art and Industry' by John W. Waterer.
What is a malemaker? Do you know? And what does "inc" mean? (You obviously have a copy of Waterer (lucky dog) and I thought he might offer some explanation for these terms....)
 

skeen7908

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Regarding the issue of foot scans, 3D printers, etc. I believe that it is/could be feasible to create a scanning/'artificial intelligence' system that could generate 'bespoke' lasts. The issue is not whether it is, conceptually, feasible, but rather whether it will happen, and I would suggest that it won't happen for a long time, if ever. The cost and challenges inherent in creating such a system are substantial, and there is likely to be a pretty small market for such a product if it were developed. Most people are reasonably satisfied with their existing shoes, and the cost and complexity of making shoes on customized lasts and then shoes on those lasts would be far more than most people would be willing to pay. Contrast this with artificial intelligence/learning systems in the context of medical care. Unlike shoes, current medical care is expert intensive, the cost of that human expertise (doctors) is high, and the impact of human error can be huge. Further, the benefits of scale economies/fixed costs from automated solutions could be profound. So, there are both cost and potential quality benefits to such a system.


Is this not what st jean de paris already do?

http://saintjeanshoes.com/

Or is the 3d scanning all for show, and no last is actually made rather you simply get sized for an existing last
 
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casemaker

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So sorry, I am unsure what 'Male-maker' is, I will go through the detailed text, and see if I can find it. I can only guess 'inc' means incorporated ?

I have all of Waterer's books, with the exception of 'Spanish Leather' , which seems to be unobtainable, although I have a photocopy of it. His books do turn up on e-bay, prices ranging from reasonable to ridiculous, but Leather in Life Art and Industry, is a worthwhile addition to one's leather library.

I met His daughter Joyce, at the Museum of Leathercraft's exhibition in Northampton, and the release of the book 'Leather and the Warrior. I was, for a short time on the board for the museum, back in the 90's.

a bit about him here,

http://journals.cambridge.org/actio...e=online&aid=7811165&fileId=S0003581500014426
 
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DWFII

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Casemaker,

Thanks...

Incorporated?

In that diagram he lists Shoewrights under a broader classification of Cordwainers. And under shoewrights is "c.1050 and "cordwainers 1272". Then the long vertical line broken by "inc 1439".

So I don't know what "inc" means in that context.

My first thought was that shoewrights and cordwainers were slightly distinct guilds until 1272 after which...in 1439?...the guilds were combined into "Cordwainers."

Maybe shoewrights were "incorporated" into the Cordwainers' Guild in 1439?

Does that make any sense?

On edit...I have to say "no" it doesn't make sense. He does use the word "combined" with regard to Bottlers being combined with the horners. And other Gulds have no such connections.

Does he mean that the guilds were "incorporated" at such and such a date--as a company will incorporate?

edited for punctuation and clarity
 
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casemaker

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I confess, I do not know, I will have to go back and reread, something I have not done for 30 years, just dipped into. And, I further confess, that even though we both work with leather, and share many tools, I know nothing about shoemaking, a different, and mysterious trade :)
 

DWFII

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I confess, I do not know, I will have to go back and reread, something I have not done for 30 years, just dipped into. And, I further confess, that even though we both work with leather, and share many tools, I know nothing about shoemaking, a different, and mysterious trade :)


Turn about is fair play I guess...I am not altogether sure what a casemaker is unless it is very literally someone who makes cases--for guns, knives, watches, etc..
 

casemaker

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Hmmm, You name 3 things I don't make, have a quick look at the photo albums on my home page, that will give you an overview.
 

DWFII

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Is this not what st jean de paris already do?

http://saintjeanshoes.com/

Or is the 3d scanning all for show, and no last is actually made rather you simply get sized for an existing last


I don't want to speak for...or anticipate...shoefan--he posted a pretty good explanation of the complexities involved a couple of pages back.

But I will say this--scanners...foot scanners...have been around for some years. They've never really taken off. And personally, I don't think that they ever will...even with the best AI (artificial intelligence) you can conceive of.

Why? Because the foot feels. So any good representation of the foot has to include more than just static measurements; it has to include feeling--tactile input, the touch of another entity (the shoemaker) who also feels.

And again, the foot changes for any number of reasons. The scanner capture only an instant in time. It's a snapshot. And nothing more. It's like taking a selfie in the morning just after you've shaved and another at night.

I don't know of any company currently employing scanner technology that factors in these critical (IMO) considerations.
 
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DWFII

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Hmmm, You name 3 things I don't make, have a quick look at the photo albums on my home page, that will give you an overview.


I couldn't find a link to your webpage (I"m feeling a bit dull this morning) but I see from your avatar and profile that you make what might be loosely (?) termed "briefcases." ?? (Not sure if my American English is adequate to the task)

"Casemaker" :facepalm: Doh!
 

DWFII

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Munky

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Shoefan. I don't want to open up the discussion about 3D scans and lasts. Just to note that 3D copiers have done some pretty wonderful things. I have seen one in action. They can even copy things that have moving parts and the copy will have moving parts too. Have a look on the net if you haven't already come across this sort of technology.
 

garland

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casemaker

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Thank you DWF,

Yes it is a Jotel, I also have a Ulefos and a couple of Morso stoves, I am up in the hills, and we are further north than Moscow :) and we regularly have -20c in winter.

Hi Garland, I am no longer able to buy the 1786 Russian reindeer, I think that Cleverleys has a lock on most of what is left.

 

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